sfrog68, I have been a business owner (childcare) for almost 17 years. It is a risk taking that jump. I don't make much "profit" anymore (I had to cut my workload in half on that business when I had more kids) but I can not put a price on being able to stay home with my kids! I also work a farmer's market in the summer and do custom cakes on nights and weekends. I have never been in the red. I have never borrowed money for my businesses. If you have the start up money without borrowing, you will be off to a good start. I made a business plan when I started my first business even though I didn't have to borrow money. I just wanted to see it work on paper before I quit my day job! It really helped! It sounds that you have weighed a lot of this out. If you have a dream I would say go for it. If it doesn't work, you know in your heart that you gave it your best shot. I wouldn't suggest that if you were going into debt for it because that is just more stress! Best of luck to you. I would love to see pics if you get it up an running!
This is the most realistic and helpful reply I've seen.
At the end of the day, a business can be a success or failure even with the highest of planning. I agree with inspiredbymom, if you're not running yourself into debt by making this purchase, I say venture on and if you fail then you just pay it off and move on. Business is always a huge risk, do it for yourself, not for the money.
sfrog68, I have been a business owner (childcare) for almost 17 years. It is a risk taking that jump. I don't make much "profit" anymore (I had to cut my workload in half on that business when I had more kids) but I can not put a price on being able to stay home with my kids! I also work a farmer's market in the summer and do custom cakes on nights and weekends. I have never been in the red. I have never borrowed money for my businesses. If you have the start up money without borrowing, you will be off to a good start. I made a business plan when I started my first business even though I didn't have to borrow money. I just wanted to see it work on paper before I quit my day job! It really helped! It sounds that you have weighed a lot of this out. If you have a dream I would say go for it. If it doesn't work, you know in your heart that you gave it your best shot. I wouldn't suggest that if you were going into debt for it because that is just more stress! Best of luck to you. I would love to see pics if you get it up an running!
This is the most realistic and helpful reply I've seen.
At the end of the day, a business can be a success or failure even with the highest of planning. I agree with inspiredbymom, if you're not running yourself into debt by making this purchase, I say venture on and if you fail then you just pay it off and move on. Business is always a huge risk, do it for yourself, not for the money.
I think there is a big misunderstanding concerning the word, "risk", in business. People hear the word associated with business and believe it to mean to just jump in and see what happens. But that is not the meaning.
In economic models, after a thorough business plan is completed, the risk is not, "Will it work?". The risk is a calculation of return on investment. After a business is established, risk can be calculated in relation to expansion or a greater capital investment.
Of course, a business plan can fail. It can either be incorrect or an unanticipated economic condition arises. Or the owner underestimated the need or desire for the business in the market. It could also be a quality issue.
So the try it and see what happens idea is why so many businesses fail (85% in the first year, higher for the food industry). It's not about following your dream. It's about education, gaining experience, becoming an expert in your field, saving money for the project, writing a business plan with real numbers, and finally realizing your dream.
[quote="dantherex"]
I made a business plan when I started my first business even though I didn't have to borrow money. I just wanted to see it work on paper before I quit my day job!
This is the important part in any business. Plan, rethink, plan some more. Think about all the possibilities, problems, pros and cons. No such thing as too much planning.
If it doesn't work, you know in your heart that you gave it your best shot.
Not really. A hobby, a past time, a crazy weekend in Vegas- that's "a shot". A business is a business... and should be planned for accordingly
There are many people who read these threads and some of us have gone to great lengths to help people write complete business plans. The OP may want to shoot down my responses as mean, but, in fact, they are truth that a dreamer does not want to hear.
A casual observation: Your advice may be sound and it may be coming from a good place. It might also be, as you suggest, truth. But it was also snippy and unnecessarily brusque--bordering on flat-out rude.
There is an unfortunate level of impatience in these forums, and I'm not surprised that the OP was offended. Not because any of your advice was wrong, but because it was delivered in such a negative way.
There are many people who read these threads and some of us have gone to great lengths to help people write complete business plans. The OP may want to shoot down my responses as mean, but, in fact, they are truth that a dreamer does not want to hear.
A casual observation: Your advice may be sound and it may be coming from a good place. It might also be, as you suggest, truth. But it was also snippy and unnecessarily brusque--bordering on flat-out rude.
There is an unfortunate level of impatience in these forums, and I'm not surprised that the OP was offended. Not because any of your advice was wrong, but because it was delivered in such a negative way.
Truth.
Truth.
Scp1127 contributes a lot to this forum. We each have our style of communicating and we each have our strengths and weaknesses. Her weakness (my opinion) is that she tends to be abrupt. But she's loved by many who have learned from her years of experience. In the spirit of community, I find it counter-productive to criticize without being constructive. My opinion.
If you are running a business and you can't handle abrupt criticism from a stranger on a message board, you won't get very far considering you are bound to hear worse every once in a while from competitors, potential customers, vendors, etc.
In my opinion, the ability to run a business vs. personal tolerance for hostile advice on The Internets are not related.
Interesting, in the space of a few hours her advice has gone from "snippy and brusque" to "accompanied by a slap" to downright "hostile". I'm curious how you will characterize her advice next. 
Having a thick skin is most definitely a requirement for any business owner, unless you have one of those rare businesses where you don't need to deal with any other humans. This forum can provide some good practice in that respect.
In my opinion, the ability to run a business vs. personal tolerance for hostile advice on The Internets are not related.
Interesting, in the space of a few hours her advice has gone from "snippy and brusque" to "accompanied by a slap" to downright "hostile". I'm curious how you will characterize her advice next.
Having a thick skin is most definitely a requirement for any business owner, unless you have one of those rare businesses where you don't need to deal with any other humans. This forum can provide some good practice in that respect.
Just to be clear, I said:
"The best advice in the world is going to be disregarded if it is delivered accompanied by a slap rather than a smile." Which is not referring to any one person or post, and is clearly a metaphor, as no one on Cake Central can reach through the screen and slap another person. It's also great advice which I think everyone could stand to hear from time to time, including myself. I run a large, busy Facebook page and I sometimes find myself answering repetitive questions, and becoming impatient. So I sometimes have to try to remember that everyone deserves a respectful answer. A little kindness goes a long way, here on CC, out on The Internets, in business, and in life.
So I sometimes have to try to remember that everyone deserves a respectful answer.
Agreed, that's definitely a notion to heed. Especially when a post turns into an attack on an individual instead of a discussion of an idea.
Yup.
I've only been registered here for a couple of weeks, but have lurked a long time, read many posts, many many many posts, and it is so effin' bleedin' obvious that KelleyM absolutely hates both Jason and SCP1127, and grabs whatever opportunity whenever, no matter how remote or far off in the Delta Quadrant, to criticise, cut down, and to launch personal attacks on these two.
I am almost embarrassed for her, sometimes (but not really - its often fun to watch someone dig their own). Its also embarrassing to read such vitriol from someone who has "Official Cake Boss Representative" plastered all over herself.
By the way, I consider myself to be very objective, have no problem not taking things personally and am VERY thick-skinned, but this behaviour is so obvious that I'm surprised that she hasn't been warned/banned.
Truth.
Scp1127 contributes a lot to this forum. We each have our style of communicating and we each have our strengths and weaknesses. Her weakness (my opinion) is that she tends to be abrupt. But she's loved by many who have learned from her years of experience. In the spirit of community, I find it counter-productive to criticize without being constructive. My opinion.
I hesitate to chime in again, but I want to respond to this. It was not my intention to criticize without being constructive. Mostly, I wanted to support the OP a bit, because things seemed to be getting unnecessarily adversarial. Also, I wanted to comment on the occasional tendency in CC forums to use a request for advice as an opportunity for rebuke. If that sort of behavior were diminished, the community would be better for it. That strikes me as a constructive goal, but I apologize if it came off as solely criticism.
I also want to stress that I don't mean to "attack" Scp1127. As you correctly point out, she contributes to this forum much more than I do, and I don't know her at all. I've interacted with others in the past who required some settling in to understand their communication style, so I appreciate your thoughts on that. I hope you--and more importantly, Scp1127--recognize that I tried to frame my response in the most non-critical way I could manage. Without disparaging her intentions or expertise, I merely suggested that her original post was unnecessarily brusque. Which it was. When I read it, the tone surprised me, so I spoke up. I suspect that Scp1127 might appreciate the input.
At any rate, I apologize for derailing the thread. That also wasn't my intention.
Dr_Hfuhruhurr, you did nothing wrong. We each have an opinion which can help others (or not) and we each have our own unique style of communicating. I'm sorry that I caused you to feel uncomfortable. I totally agree with you that the tone in responses can sometimes seem harsh. Unfortunately, threads often get sidetracked with interpersonal relations and personal attacks that can go on and on. I think Godot is observant and posted what I see, too. It's unfortunate that scp1127 and Jason are often needlessly criticized and picked on not for what they post but because of who they are.
Truth.
Scp1127 contributes a lot to this forum. We each have our style of communicating and we each have our strengths and weaknesses. Her weakness (my opinion) is that she tends to be abrupt. But she's loved by many who have learned from her years of experience. In the spirit of community, I find it counter-productive to criticize without being constructive. My opinion.
I hesitate to chime in again, but I want to respond to this. It was not my intention to criticize without being constructive. Mostly, I wanted to support the OP a bit, because things seemed to be getting unnecessarily adversarial. Also, I wanted to comment on the occasional tendency in CC forums to use a request for advice as an opportunity for rebuke. If that sort of behavior were diminished, the community would be better for it. That strikes me as a constructive goal, but I apologize if it came off as solely criticism.
I also want to stress that I don't mean to "attack" Scp1127. As you correctly point out, she contributes to this forum much more than I do, and I don't know her at all. I've interacted with others in the past who required some settling in to understand their communication style, so I appreciate your thoughts on that. I hope you--and more importantly, Scp1127--recognize that I tried to frame my response in the most non-critical way I could manage. Without disparaging her intentions or expertise, I merely suggested that her original post was unnecessarily brusque. Which it was. When I read it, the tone surprised me, so I spoke up. I suspect that Scp1127 might appreciate the input.
At any rate, I apologize for derailing the thread. That also wasn't my intention.
I thought you gave great advie.
And for the record Kellym and MANY people on here agree with her views. She has never done anything to warrent banning. If that is the case, as often as SCP has been called on her condescending and rude attitude dressed up as "no nonsense busines advie" then she would be banned. She has been called on this many times.
JasonKraft would then be banned for his' instigating ways. I believe it was Blakescakes that totally called him on it when he said he had no problem undermining a fellow baker by delivering another cake to the same event, when called on it, tried to back track, and then admitted to "just saying it to see how others woud respond". Yup, Blakes called it like it was on that one.
So if KellyM should be banned for her rather calm, clear stated opinions, then I can think of some that should be banned right along with her for worse.
I am sure Jasonkraft will say my "personal attacks" are unwarranted, but they are not. I like to call things as I see them and not be underhanded with my attacks and try to dress them up or change tactics just to please the popular opinion.
I
I never said that KelleyM should be banned or warned - just that I'm surprised that she isn't, or at least had a warning (maybe she has, via PM - who knows?). "Rather calm, clear stated opinions"? Are we reading the same postings here?
I wouldnever purchase the Cake Boss software after witnessing her rampages here on CC. Official representative? Shame.
I'm not partial to anyone. I believe that everyone has something to give, and that every new situation is a learning experience. However, people who allow themselves to be so riled up to the point of being so ugly are, in fact, an embarrassment.
Really godot, you sound like woman scorned. Why are you painting Kellym out as some rampaging monster? And the digs about the business- not cool. People argue on here all the time, its posts like your that incite the kinda threads that get to 20 pages then closed. I've lurked for about 2 years and I've seen most of the prolific posters insulting others, its what happens on forums that are barely moderated.
People don't get on, not really a big deal, and I'm sure all those who dish it out can take it.
he said he had no problem undermining a fellow baker by delivering another cake to the same event, when called on it, tried to back track, and then admitted to "just saying it to see how others woud respond".
Normally I don't respond to these types of attacks, but I would like to set the record straight that I did not post that I was "just saying it to see how others would respond". That is a blatant lie. The thread in question was about a sole source clause, and I posted that I had delivered a cake to a customer with a food allergy despite their agreement with a different baker containing a sole source clause (who refused to accommodate the allergy), since I do not let the policies of competitors dictate how I do business. I did not then nor will I now "back track" from that position.
FWIW the hostility expressed by a tiny (but vocal) minority on this forum has not gone unnoticed, but this is the first time it has been exposed publicly. Personally I feel it's better to keep the discussion of these issues private so they don't mess with existing threads, and as you've seen above it's not even necessary to call out the individuals in question since they are pretty transparent.
I could not care less what is said about me. If we all go back to my first post, I clearly gave reasons why this is not the best venture. Then the OP attacked me. Once someone gets personal, I never get personal back, but I will tend to point out clear red flags that the OP is not seeing. At first it is my view, but if my standard business common knowledge is made out to be incorrect, I will give a no nonsense rebuttal that will show that I was correct in my views. This rebuttal is not for the OP, but for the many readers who may get confused by the conflicting information.
I don't care one bit if the OP has her whole family working for a collective sub-minimum wage. But if my posts help one other person contemplating and planning a future business, then I am happy about that.
Some people want the butterflies and rainbows, but business is math, and business numbers are finite. No grey area, it's black and white. Just like my posts.
In this scenario of the OP, the model does not work. That is clear to everyone with real business knowledge.
I was just offered a much larger space in the center where I open in five weeks. That was Saturday. I have spent all Saturday, all of Sunday, and will spend most of the week on a new business plan (actually updated). These are real numbers with real income. This off-the-cuff or "just go for it", form of business planning some people use is financial suicide.
With an 85% failure rate for new businesses, maybe the abrupt delivery is actually deliberate. I want people to think and not jeopardize their homes, jobs, credit, or savings. I have seen this happen hundreds of times. Public failure is demoralizing, embarassing, and defeating. I only try to protect people from this situation.
Everyone can realize their dream with planning. Saving the money is paramount. Then comes basic business education, experience, and a REAL business plan. Go to school until you can do it and understand its components. Understanding the web and how to use it is vital. Then comes marketing... the plan and the money to implement. Leaving out any of these steps and the new business is on the road to failure before it opens.
I don't try to be mean, but I do try to jolt attention to red flags in business issues. So many people on this site are nice, polite and encouraging. It is their nature. I am the blunt person that brings up the concerns and "what ifs". Again, it is only for the purpose to cause a person to consider a possible trouble spot.
Business is not about earning a sub-minimum wage. It's about planning and reaping the rewards for an entrepreneurial venture. My original "Just Desserts" business model made me personally $40.00/hr. I wasn't going to build that kitchen for any less. My new venture will make much more than that. And anyone can do this with a plan. I planned for several years and saved. This is essential for success. It's better to get a job working for someone else if you can only earn a little. There is no reason to risk assets when you risk nothing working for someone else.
So my delivery is abrupt and to the point, but my intentions are to keep people from losing money.
As for the other personal attacks, some people will actually contradict themselves just to post the opposite of anything Jason or I write. I find it amusing.
So my delivery is abrupt and to the point, but my intentions are to keep people from losing money.
By quoting a statistic that is pure myth? There is not a single study that demonstrates that the rate of small business failure is 85%. While this number is repeated across the web actual studies of small businesses, reinforced with data from the Small Business Administration indicate this number is a no where close to true. 85% when, year one? Not even close. Indeed the closest the number gets to 85% is by year 10. Even a little research will disclose the variety of studies that burst this pernicious myth.
In addition numbers do not measure failures they measure closures and businesses close for any number of reasons only one of which is the inability to generate sufficient revenue because. They measure closures and not failures because that is the data available. It is easy to get a number for business closures, what is not easy to get is why they closed. And sorry closure is not a sign of failure due to insufficient planning/revenue. Indeed if your current business closes due to your new venture (I honestly don't know what your plans for your existing enterprise is) its closure would become part of the statistic for business closures. The number for business closures would increase by 1 but the reason for closure would not be due to insufficient revenue.
Wanting to help someone is noble and admirable but using a scare tactic to make people feel like if they do not do it your way they will be 1 of 85% is not. While much of your advice indicates one way people can be successful, it is not the only way. The fact is small businesses with small business loans succeed all the time, small business owners are successful without going to business school. And prattling off a mythical statistic scary number is not helpful.
The number supported by stats is a 60% failure rate in the first three years.
http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-04-16/the-restaurant-failure-mythbusinessweek-business-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice
60% for restaurants seems right. Restaurants require a substantial amount of time to run and manage, lots of upfront capital as you have to have a full menu and staff on day one but you probably won't get consistent business for months. Plus, restaurants have stricter regulatory requirements.
Be curious to see a number for small businesses overall or bakeries, but even then not sure how applicable they would be to the OPs venture, which is no where near as labor-intensive or capital-intensive. Not to scoff at $3,000 but that's not a lot of capital at risk.
I wish we could revise the dialogue around the OP's question. Less talk about failure and more about the challenges the OP will face in making this venture more of a success then her predecessor was able to. The OP might have lower labor costs then the previous owners due to use of family workers, but maybe suggestions on ways to drive more business and sales.
I wish we could revise the dialogue around the OP's question. Less talk about failure and more about the challenges the OP will face in making this venture more of a success then her predecessor was able to. The OP might have lower labor costs then the previous owners due to use of family workers, but maybe suggestions on ways to drive more business and sales.
Before it was derailed by personal attacks that's what this thread was about, highlighting the challenges of running this type of business.
The idea that using family results in lower labor costs was brought up as well...if the success of your business is contingent on having labor that will work for below market rates, you don't really have a viable business in the first place.
BTW the 60% in 3 years figure for restaurants is roughly equivalent to the failure rate for all new businesses. A low initial capital investment may mean it's more difficult for the business to fail, but that is counterbalanced by reduced barriers to entry, which makes it easier to jump in to the market without adequate planning and preparation.
I in NO WAY attacked you until you attacked me. You were negative and just unnecessarily rude from the beginning. If you would have come off your high horse and asked me a few questions I could have laid out the numbers plain in simple and shown this can and will work. I have seen the numbers, I have done the math and this business may not make me rich, however, it will contribute to my families income.
I could not care less what is said about me. If we all go back to my first post, I clearly gave reasons why this is not the best venture. Then the OP attacked me. Once someone gets personal, I never get personal back, but I will tend to point out clear red flags that the OP is not seeing. At first it is my view, but if my standard business common knowledge is made out to be incorrect, I will give a no nonsense rebuttal that will show that I was correct in my views. This rebuttal is not for the OP, but for the many readers who may get confused by the conflicting information.
I don't care one bit if the OP has her whole family working for a collective sub-minimum wage. But if my posts help one other person contemplating and planning a future business, then I am happy about that.
Some people want the butterflies and rainbows, but business is math, and business numbers are finite. No grey area, it's black and white. Just like my posts.
In this scenario of the OP, the model does not work. That is clear to everyone with real business knowledge.
I was just offered a much larger space in the center where I open in five weeks. That was Saturday. I have spent all Saturday, all of Sunday, and will spend most of the week on a new business plan (actually updated). These are real numbers with real income. This off-the-cuff or "just go for it", form of business planning some people use is financial suicide.
With an 85% failure rate for new businesses, maybe the abrupt delivery is actually deliberate. I want people to think and not jeopardize their homes, jobs, credit, or savings. I have seen this happen hundreds of times. Public failure is demoralizing, embarassing, and defeating. I only try to protect people from this situation.
Everyone can realize their dream with planning. Saving the money is paramount. Then comes basic business education, experience, and a REAL business plan. Go to school until you can do it and understand its components. Understanding the web and how to use it is vital. Then comes marketing... the plan and the money to implement. Leaving out any of these steps and the new business is on the road to failure before it opens.
I don't try to be mean, but I do try to jolt attention to red flags in business issues. So many people on this site are nice, polite and encouraging. It is their nature. I am the blunt person that brings up the concerns and "what ifs". Again, it is only for the purpose to cause a person to consider a possible trouble spot.
Business is not about earning a sub-minimum wage. It's about planning and reaping the rewards for an entrepreneurial venture. My original "Just Desserts" business model made me personally $40.00/hr. I wasn't going to build that kitchen for any less. My new venture will make much more than that. And anyone can do this with a plan. I planned for several years and saved. This is essential for success. It's better to get a job working for someone else if you can only earn a little. There is no reason to risk assets when you risk nothing working for someone else.
So my delivery is abrupt and to the point, but my intentions are to keep people from losing money.
As for the other personal attacks, some people will actually contradict themselves just to post the opposite of anything Jason or I write. I find it amusing.
The facts of the matter in the venture I have purchased are this. The last 2 owners have both moved onto bigger full time bakeries. The 1st owner had the business 2 months and made enough profit and felt comfortable enough that she opened her own bakery. The 2nd owners, the ones I'm purchasing from, worked there for 3 months before opening a bigger bakery, and are in the process of opening up a second full time shop. They have run the business in 4 months with a profit (after cogs and rent) of over $2000 a month. They in fact had to hire an employee to sit there since they were running there other bakery and taking care of wholesale orders that were coming in. So yes, they were eating at there $2000 a month profit by having someone sit there 4 days a week. I will be able to run my own booth, therefore, not having to hire an employee. I know they were pushing out about 60 dozen cupcakes a week, which can be done. I will have 3 days home. I know there are ways to keep a head of the game. Example, have all dry ingredients packaged up in advance. My batters freeze nicely so I can go that route. There are many things, I can do to make my life easier. Like I said previously, this may not make me rich, however, it will contribute to my families income.
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