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Is it illegal to get cost reimb???? - Page 2

post #16 of 66
8/24/10 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3GCakes

Here's the thing: Do we want the gov't stepping into our food supply....because if they had their way...they'd probably just treat every food particle with radiation.


The government already closely regulates our food supply, in fact that's why the FDA and USDA exist. I'm not sure about your food, but my food certainly isn't irradiated. icon_smile.gif

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There is an extreme to both sides. There are those who drop food on the floor, lick the beaters, then ice the cake. Then there are those who use high-quality local ingredients, sell farm-fresh foods, and even under the best of circumstances (because we live in an imperfect world) cannot 100% guarantee safety.


No one is required to guarantee 100% safety. Licensing and inspection ensures people who make food for others follow proper procedures in order to minimize risk.

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even dictating what **I** can buy under my own free will.


I agree with you there...laws banning trans fats make no sense to me. Labeling and transparency, yes, but not banning. If someone wants to eat trans fats, they should be made aware that they are doing so by the packaging, and then they should make their own decision.

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Once that happens, there will be no **scratch** baking


Why would food safety regulations stop people from baking from scratch?

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These laws give in to fear. Just like the recent egg recall---we can all count on the gov't stepping in...and pasteurizing to their heart's content.


Except they've already stepped in and recalled the contaminated eggs. No forced pasteurization here.
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post #17 of 66
8/24/10 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3GCakes

Here's the thing: Do we want the gov't stepping into our food supply....because if they had their way...they'd probably just treat every food particle with radiation.


The government already closely regulates our food supply, in fact that's why the FDA and USDA exist. I'm not sure about your food, but my food certainly isn't irradiated. icon_smile.gif

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There is an extreme to both sides. There are those who drop food on the floor, lick the beaters, then ice the cake. Then there are those who use high-quality local ingredients, sell farm-fresh foods, and even under the best of circumstances (because we live in an imperfect world) cannot 100% guarantee safety.


No one is required to guarantee 100% safety. Licensing and inspection ensures people who make food for others follow proper procedures in order to minimize risk.

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even dictating what **I** can buy under my own free will.


I agree with you there...laws banning trans fats make no sense to me. Labeling and transparency, yes, but not banning. If someone wants to eat trans fats, they should be made aware that they are doing so by the packaging, and then they should make their own decision.

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Once that happens, there will be no **scratch** baking


Why would food safety regulations stop people from baking from scratch?

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These laws give in to fear. Just like the recent egg recall---we can all count on the gov't stepping in...and pasteurizing to their heart's content.


Except they've already stepped in and recalled the contaminated eggs. No forced pasteurization here.



They recalled 380 million eggs. Now...consider that most chickens in every store DO have some salmonella presence.

And I must insist: I am not a conspiracy theorist: but I can see something written on a wall:

http://www.naturalnews.com/029539_salmonella_eggs.html

ANd yes...people do make money off of such stories, but we must all be aware. There is such a possibility. I don't want the gov't to control my food. **I* want to control my food.
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I'd rather see badly done cake than well done styrofoam.
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You don't HAVE a soul, you ARE a soul...you HAVE a body. C.S. Lewis
I'd rather see badly done cake than well done styrofoam.
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post #18 of 66
8/24/10 at 2:58pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone!! I figured as much. I'm still pretty new at this and really just want to practice cakes without breaking the law. But I also don't want to dig into my own pockets as much if I didn't have to. I was hoping if a potential customer (for lack of a better word-I wouldn't ask fam and friends for anything) bought the ingredients that it wasn't the same as "selling". I DID call the Health Dept and got put on hold for 10 mins and transferred twice, so I gave up and posted here. I really appreciate all the responses!!
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post #19 of 66
8/24/10 at 4:35pm
Contact your local HD - here in Ohio you can make and bake and sell as much as you want to LEGALLY without being licensed. (as long as it does not require refrigeration)

I choose to be licensed, but I don't HAVE to be. There is no limit on how much I can profit in a year either.
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Knowledge is a candle that when shared, doubles the light, but the insecure person believes knowledge is a candle that is diminished when it is split between two wicks.
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post #20 of 66
8/24/10 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loucinda

Contact your local HD - here in Ohio you can make and bake and sell as much as you want to LEGALLY without being licensed. (as long as it does not require refrigeration)

I choose to be licensed, but I don't HAVE to be. There is no limit on how much I can profit in a year either.


So what can you bake that doesn't require refrigeration? The only things I can think of are vegan cookies, muffins, and pies, since anything made with eggs or dairy would be out.
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post #21 of 66
8/24/10 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loucinda

Contact your local HD - here in Ohio you can make and bake and sell as much as you want to LEGALLY without being licensed. (as long as it does not require refrigeration)

I choose to be licensed, but I don't HAVE to be. There is no limit on how much I can profit in a year either.


So what can you bake that doesn't require refrigeration? The only things I can think of are vegan cookies, muffins, and pies, since anything made with eggs or dairy would be out.


That is not true, there is a specific formula that defines a non-potentially hazardous food. Many cakes and cookies are non-potentially hazardous. Do you keep cookies in the refrigerator?

http://www.deh.enr.state.nc.us/ehs/Food/020614_Potentially_Hazardous_Desserts.pdf
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post #22 of 66
8/24/10 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loucinda

Contact your local HD - here in Ohio you can make and bake and sell as much as you want to LEGALLY without being licensed. (as long as it does not require refrigeration)

I choose to be licensed, but I don't HAVE to be. There is no limit on how much I can profit in a year either.


So what can you bake that doesn't require refrigeration? The only things I can think of are vegan cookies, muffins, and pies, since anything made with eggs or dairy would be out.


That is not true, there is a specific formula that defines a non-potentially hazardous food. Many cakes and cookies are non-potentially hazardous. Do you keep cookies in the refrigerator?

http://www.deh.enr.state.nc.us/ehs/Food/020614_Potentially_Hazardous_Desserts.pdf


The Ohio law says that cottage food makers may not process potentially hazardous foods. Eggs and most dairy products are potentially hazardous.

That's why I mentioned vegan products, since they do not use eggs or dairy.
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post #23 of 66
8/24/10 at 4:56pm
I know all about the Ohio law. Please stop trying to scare people with misinformation.
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post #24 of 66
8/24/10 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

I know all about the Ohio law.


So what is your interpretation of the Ohio 901:3-20-05 Prohibition "A cottage food operation may not: (A) Process potentially hazardous foods"?

I'm not trying to "scare" people, I'm just trying to get a better idea of what the OH law does and does not allow.
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post #25 of 66
8/24/10 at 5:05pm
From Chuck Kirchner, Ohio Department of Agriculture:

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We also have Cottage Foods which allows non-potentially hazardous baked goods to be made in the Home kitchen without inspection and without being licensed. Those products are only permitted to be sold within Ohio as long as they are properly labeled. This category has been growing at a greater rate than Home Bakeries.



This is from an email correspondence between him and myself. I've done my homework, and then some, on Cottage Food Laws. I'm not interested in arguing semantics of another state's law with you. I just want to point out that it's really irresponsible to be advising people about laws and regulations that you have no personal knowledge of.

Everyone should follow the law. Everyone should have liability insurance if you have a business. But everyone should also contact their local authorities to find out what the regulations in their area are.
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post #26 of 66
8/24/10 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

From Chuck Kirchner, Ohio Department of Agriculture:

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We also have Cottage Foods which allows non-potentially hazardous baked goods to be made in the Home kitchen without inspection and without being licensed. Those products are only permitted to be sold within Ohio as long as they are properly labeled. This category has been growing at a greater rate than Home Bakeries.



That quote doesn't address my concern about processing ingredients that are potentially hazardous, even if the final product is NPH.

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This is from an email correspondence between him and myself. I've done my homework, and then some, on Cottage Food Laws. I'm not interested in arguing semantics of another state's law with you. I just want to point out that it's really irresponsible to be advising people about laws and regulations that you have no personal knowledge of.


I'm not "advising" anyone of anything...if you read my posts, I've only quoted the text of the law and asked questions.

I had not read the Ohio Cottage Food law before today, but the prohibition against processing PH foods stuck out as a potentially major issue for commercial home bakers, depending on how it is interpreted by the state and county health depts. I would be interested in seeing an official response from OH on this, I did a quick search but didn't come up with anything.

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Everyone should follow the law. Everyone should have liability insurance if you have a business. But everyone should also contact their local authorities to find out what the regulations in their area are.


I agree 100%. Everyone should also do their best to understand the regulations in their area, and the way the OH law is written is somewhat unclear, at least IMO.
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post #27 of 66
8/24/10 at 5:23pm
It's unclear if you're searching for technicalities to seize on. It's not unclear to the Department of Agriculture, or the thousands of legal home bakers in that state.
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post #28 of 66
8/24/10 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

It's unclear if you're searching for technicalities to seize on. It's not unclear to the Department of Agriculture, or the thousands of legal home bakers in that state.


Has the OH DoA made a statement clarifying this provision?

The clarity of the law to existing home bakers is irrelevant, as they do not officially interpret and enforce the law. Most people don't even read the law.

I only read the OH law in the first place because someone had mentioned that there was no income limit, which seemed unusual for a cottage food law. Hopefully the prohibition on processing PH food refers to the finished goods and not the ingredients, as it stands that particular provision was sloppily written IMO.

The MI law is much clearer, since there is no mention of "processing" PH food. In fact, MI specifically mentions cake as an OK item. However, MI does not have separate classifications for "home bakeries" (in OH: $10/year fee, no carpet in kitchen or pets in home) and "cottage food manufacturers" as OH does.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28ssza4ffcuqmzbb55r3fdofqq%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-289-1105
http://michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-50772_45851-240577--,00.html
http://www.agri.ohio.gov/licensing/odalicensing.aspx?div=Food%20Safety

Just to be clear, home bakers in OH should not panic because of the above discussion. As long as you operate in good faith within the cottage food law as you understand it you should be fine.
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post #29 of 66
8/24/10 at 6:01pm
Hi KelleyM! You are my hero. I wish you were in Az working to establish change for our Cottage Food laws. I hope that once Tx gets on the wagon, more states will follow.

I wonder since you have put so much effort and research into all the cottage food laws and such...if you would know if I'd be ok (as a home baker, non-licensed) to donate a cake to a (church) silent auction for a charitable event.

I wouldn't be too concerned if I was just donating the cake outright, but I was asked if I could donate a certificate so that the person could choose their design at a later date. To me, that line gets awfully close to 'advertising'.

Am I good because I'm not accepting money, or should I still check in with my local DoH?

Thanks for your help
I never met a cake I didn't like.

Kristy
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I never met a cake I didn't like.

Kristy
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post #30 of 66
8/24/10 at 6:04pm
I have complete trust in the inspector and the Ohio Dept. Of Agriculture. I can give you his name and phone number for you to debate with him what is allowed and what is not. I KNOW what is, I LIVE here, and I have talked with him on several occasions.

For me, I will follow the direction of the food safety specialists here in Ohio that regulate (and license) me.

jasonkraft, you ARE posting info that is incorrect, whether you want to admit it or not.
Knowledge is a candle that when shared, doubles the light, but the insecure person believes knowledge is a candle that is diminished when it is split between two wicks.
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