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Mosquito and campfire cookie - Page 2

post #16 of 29
Good luck on your packing and your move, TracyLH.
post #17 of 29
Thanks, luv2bake6 icon_biggrin.gif - We are off to WA State, so I will now be learning how to deal with increased humidity. There is always something new to learn! icon_smile.gif Apparently, it rains there a lot, but I guess that is why it is so green. thumbs_up.gif
"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
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"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
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post #18 of 29
Not to hijack this post but I wondered why I got no response to my
post @ Iron Man cookies (I can relate to the Dora story on that project lol)
OMGosh this copyright thing is waaayyy deep.
My 2 cents is...there has to be a comfortable medium to this right...
Some say copying is the highest form of flattery the problem seems
to be in that the original artist deserves credit for their work which may be
difficult to do for a number of reasons and that seems to be the missing component.
I like the idea of asking for permission to duplicate in similar format sounds like a good start. I sincerely hope that this discussion opens the door to compromise but more importantly understanding by us allicon_wink.gif
post #19 of 29
Hi everyone -

I cannot help but chime in on this thread. It's a topic I unfortunately know too well.

I have a very black and white point of view on copyrights:
if you do not own the copyright on the work you'd like to produce, do not produce it!

The creator of a design, photo, concept, work of art, etc. who owns the copyright is entitled, by law, to do with as they please with their work. The work is most likely their livelihood and therefore translates to dollars or potential dollars. It is up to the copyright holder what should happen with the work. It is NOT up to others to decide FOR the copyright owner the fate of the work in question. That's not my opinion, that is copyright law.

I have created designs for Starbucks, Neiman's, Nordies, Bloomies, etc. I know from experience that buyers do not want a design that is not original. They see everything and if the design is in the public arena, it is tainted, it is not "fresh" and they will do anything to distance themselves from it. For the company they work for to be perceived as being on the cutting edge, they hire professionals to create original designs to maintain their high end image. They will lose market share if they fail at that task. My copyrights are just as important to them as they are to me and it all translates to potential earnings.

With the onset of the internet, defending the copyrights of my catalog of 20 years worth of my work has become a full-time job. If you ask me to duplicate something I've created because you think it's great, the answer will be "sorry". Flattery as form of payment to use a copyrighted design is not an option for me.

The answer might be yes if the work has already appeared in a publication or magazine, has run it's course with the retail buyers, or other circumstances where it has substantially lost it's earning potential. Until then, my copyrighted work will be defended tooth and nail.

Copyrights are a business tool. Not a barbed wire fence to keep admirers out. They are the law and must be respected. There's no need to get upset about it. They are a legal reality and in the business world, not up for debate.

If you can, put yourself in the creator's shoes. Think what it would be like to have your design, the one you're REALLY proud of trifled with or worse, stolen. It feels terrible. I wouldn't wish the feeling on anyone.

Thanks much - fondant.com
post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by fondantdotcom

Hi everyone -

I cannot help but chime in on this thread. It's a topic I unfortunately know too well.

I have a very black and white point of view on copyrights
if you do not own the copyright on the work you'd like to produce, do not produce it!

The creator of a design, photo, concept, work of art, etc. who owns the copyright is entitled, by law, to do with as they please with their work. The work is most likely their livelihood and therefore translates to dollars or potential dollars. It is up to the copyright holder what should happen with the work. It is NOT up to others to decide FOR the copyright owner the fate of the work in question. That's not my opinion, that is copyright law.

I have created designs for Starbucks, Neiman's, Nordies, Bloomies, etc. I know from experience that buyers do not want a design that is not original. They see everything and if the design is in the public arena, it is tainted, it is not "fresh" and they will do anything to distance themselves from it. For the company they work for to be perceived as being on the cutting edge, they hire professionals to create original designs to maintain their high end image. They will lose market share if they fail at that task. My copyrights are just as important to them as they are to me and it all translates to potential earnings.

With the onset of the internet, defending the copyrights of my catalog of 20 years worth of my work has become a full-time job. If you ask me to duplicate something I've created because you think it's great, the answer will be "sorry". Flattery as form of payment to use a copyrighted design is not an option for me.

The answer might be yes if the work has already appeared in a publication or magazine, has run it's course with the retail buyers, or other circumstances where it has substantially lost it's earning potential. Until then, my copyrighted work will be defended tooth and nail.

Copyrights are a business tool. Not a barbed wire fence to keep admirers out. They are the law and must be respected. There's no need to get upset about it. They are a legal reality and in the business world, not up for debate.

If you can, put yourself in the creator's shoes. Think what it would be like to have your design, the one you're REALLY proud of trifled with or worse, stolen. It feels terrible. I wouldn't wish the feeling on anyone.

Thanks much - fondant.com

@fondantdotcom you totally misunderstood my comment, rather than spend time defending your comment let me agree with an earlier post that in a public format like this one you can not expect that people will not use photos for inspiration as I am sure you
have not created every item you have ever decorated without gaining some inspiration from
someone else. My point is that as a courtesy one should contact the designer to talk @ using their work for inspiration as was also mentioned here by Tracy. So save your lecture for someone else!
post #21 of 29
this is a very sticky topic...and welcome to WA TracyLH-it does rain alot here, but right now its 83 at 8 in the evening and doesn't look to be cooling off for awhile. On the copy right issue...I understand why some one would get upset if some one "stole" their design, BUT this is a public forum and not everything is that black and white. I had a nice woman pm me for instructions to do one of my cakes and she didn't ask for permission. The way I look at it is-if its a cake of a dog for example then theres no reason to get upset. It's a dog! I didn't create dogs, or bumble bees, or dragons. Theres only so much creativity involved in doing some thing like that. You can change colors/expression etc, but its still going to have all the same characteristics. I don't doubt that someone could create some thing they think is 100 % original, but we have billions of people on this planet and I'm sure its been done before. Having said that-if someone is planning on doing a 100% replica I think its a good idea to shoot the original artist an email. I just find it hard to believe anyone is 100% original even if we'd like to think we are. All our thoughts, visions, and creativity is from somewhere.
post #22 of 29
^^^furthermore, because a unicorn was an original creation and doesn't exist outside of imagination should we then try to figure out who came up with the unicorn decades or centuries ago and asking permission before making one of our own and selling it as a "unicorn"?
I'm not familiar with copy right laws, but I find it weird that someone is in the wrong for re creating an image of, say, a bird, but not wrong for selling a cake of a unicorn. Some things seem impossible to track down and endlessely tiring.
Hmmm definitely some food for thought for me...
post #23 of 29
I'm curious about something... what if the person who copied the cookies was not selling them, but made them for a family get-together? I completely understand not wanting someone to use your designs for their cookie business, but think about the character pans that Wilton sells- you can make the copyrighted designs for personal use. How do we know what the use was? Has anyone asked this person? I just really hate it when conclusions are jumped to. icon_sad.gif
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Quote:

this is a very sticky topic...and welcome to WA



Thank you, AdventureGal for your welcome! icon_biggrin.gif I have heard that the sun has been shining and it is just gorgeous. I am down to the final move prep push and I look forward to it being over. My husband is gone (has been for nine months) and I am organizing and packing up 10,000 lbs to be ready for him to take in a U-Haul to be driven from VA to CT to be stored in temporary and deep storage and then there is the regular move to prepare for on top of it. I am drop dead exhausted. (Where is the 'drop dead exhausted' emoticon when you need it? icon_lol.gif I think a lot of us who all juggle so much could use it. thumbs_up.gif )

You are so very right. This is a very sticky topic. It makes me think, "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!" with the robot's arms flailing about. (Of course, I am assuming that you are even old enough to know that reference to the original "Lost in Space" icon_lol.gif )

As I really, really do have to focus on this final push for the move, I will be signing off of this topic. It just becomes a hornet's nest. I just follow what I have been told by my copyright lawyer. He is a partner in a large copyright firm here in D.C. so I have faith in the counsel he gives me. I also did a lot of initial studying through the U.S. Copyright Office. That is the best place to start if one wants to learn the legalities of copyright law.

Copyright law is very specific. One most definitely cannot copyright a concept - a idea of a duck, a unicorn, etc. One can copyright a specific design/artwork. For example, the artwork of a certain duck named Donald. However, a design does not have to have the magnitude of Disney standing behind it to be copyright protected. Any original specific design can be copyrighted. Again, not the concept, but the actual design.

As for public forums, I have never seen it stated that designs are up for grabs. It is wonderful that so many are fine with their work being copied, but I do not wish that to happen. I have removed my work from public forums to prevent that from occurring. I do have a circle of cookie friends who can view it, but it is closed off to public viewing. In my case, I felt this was the best path to take. I enjoy the back and forth of showing each other what we came up with and the support we give one another for our hard work. I have had some of them ask me if they can do designs inspired by mine and I give them permission as I know that my artwork will simply be 'inspiration' for what they create and never a copy. They also give credit to the original designer. I miss the back and forth excitement of showing my CC friends what I had created, but this was the best route for me as time and time again, I was finding my original artwork either directly copied or a derivative work done without asking, which violates copyright law and did not set well with me. I spent years studying graphic design and it was ingrained into me that this is a no-go. Others apparently are fine with copying and that is wonderful for them. I, and actually several I know, do not wish that to occur. I can still come here and try to answer questions and offer supportive comments, but that is it for me. That is just my choice in order to protect my work.

The photos that I do have are clearly marked with the copyright symbol, but as explained to me by my copyright attorney, that is not a necessity as original designs are protected once set in fixed format (i.e. a photo). As for the issue if someone plans to do a 100% replica of someone else's work that they see on a public forum, they certainly need to get permission first. If it is allowed, well, that is great, but only if it is allowed. That is very gracious of the original designer given the time it takes to create an original design. I spend hours and hours in the design stage and many times hours as well in the research stage. You would laugh your head off at the amount of research I did to design my sailboat cookies. I was bound and determined to make sure I got it correct nautically as the recipients all sail or have sailed and, trust me, they would call me on any errors. I pulled up actual drawings of boats and photos to do my research, but kept seeing too many discrepancies with the jib, the boom and the direction in which the flag blows in relation to the mainsail. I called a pro sailing shop in Long Beach, CA. The gentleman who answered the phone was both amused and very helpful. After all of those hours of research and then the design time (I am very detail oriented) I do not wish to see my work copied. I did used to have my work available for viewing on public forums and it was clearly marked with the copyright symbol and the wording that it applied to both the design and image and I still found some of it copied down to the accent lines and fine detailing for sale on someone's website. I contact them and asked that they remove my copyrighted design. She apologized and said that she did not realize it was copyrighted. The copyright was very, very predominantly shown, so as this was happening far too often (and these were only the ones I stumbled across or was told about), it was time to pull my designs off of viewing on public forums.

Copyright is taken very seriously by many. I know of two other immensely talented cookie artists who have done the same as I have in removing my work from viewing on a public forum. They do unbelievable work and their level of talent and creativity was an inspiration just to look at. They were not looking for credit. That did not negate what was being done. They simply did not wish to have their original works duplicated or simplified or similar versions done. One of the reasons is that they are both in the process of writing books and they cannot get their work published if it is already out there being done by others. More-so, they were astonished that people would just duplicate their work or do derivative works without prior permission, which is copyright infringement. I also have been approached about writing a book and I am covering myself. Again, for the three of us, it is more about the designs themselves being used, not just the book issue.

As for personal use, my understanding from my copyright lawyer is that you just do not copy others' copyrighted work. It is not a matter of whether or not it is sold.

I think the best idea for these public forums is to ask the original designer first if you can do a work inspired by theirs and then give them credit for the inspiration when posting your version. If dealing with a company as I did when I asked permission to do a cookie that was inspired by their work (and mine was substantially different from the original) or in the case of using that small logo for the center of the popcorn box, make sure you get it in writing with the name of the person you spoke to, the date and even the time. Additionally, (very importantly) it cannot appear to be too close to the original design in any case (public forum or not) and permission must be granted. That is the aforementioned 'derivative work' and is copyright infringement if it is done, even if different, without prior consent from the original artist. My copyright attorney taught me that if someone can hold up a design next to the second design (whether the first came from a public forum or not) and it is obvious where the inspiration came from for that second one, that even if it is different, if no permission was granted from the original artist, that is copyright infringement and will stand up as such in a court of law. They look at a whole list of factors that I cannot get into right now - distinctive aspects, etc. Just bear in mind that when if someone asks to play off a design, permission might not always be granted. I know of several who do not allow it.

Again, this topic is a hornet's nest. I just follow copyright law and also a sense of what I learned as a child. You dont take something that doesnt belong to you and if you want to play with someone elses toys, you ask first. Well, I am signing off of this topic. Boxes are everywhere, I have two kids to take care of and I need to get to the task at hand as movers will not understand if I am not prepared when they pull up. We are going to a house less than half the size of this one and I have my work cut out for me.
"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
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"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
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post #25 of 29
I am popping on really quickly before I pack up more boxes to pass on another very informative thread about copyright, if anyone wishes to see it. It covers a variety of topics that might be helpful:

http://cakecentral.com/cake-decorating-ftopict-687551.html
"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
Reply
"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
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post #26 of 29
I'm trying to understand this for personal use. If someone makes cookies or cake that are basically copying another person's design (Donald Duck, the mosquito cookies, etc...), I thought that was fine for home/personal use. I guess I think of it the same way I do of singing my favorite song from the radio with my siblings, or drawing cartoons for my kids.

Does the problem come, not from making the cookies or singing the song, but from photographing/recording the product and allowing others to see it?

http://letsgetcaking.blogspot.com/

 

All this cake, and I've gained too much weight. LOL! I am now....The Cake Runner!

 

http://thecakerunner.blogspot.com/

Reply

http://letsgetcaking.blogspot.com/

 

All this cake, and I've gained too much weight. LOL! I am now....The Cake Runner!

 

http://thecakerunner.blogspot.com/

Reply
post #27 of 29
If a company or artist authorizes copying of their copyrighted work, than fine. thumbs_up.gif Otherwise, it is copyright infringement whether it is for personal use or for profit and whether it is photographed or not. The law does not say "this is copyrighted unless someone wishes to use it for personal use". The link I posted right before this one has very good information on the subject as does the U.S. Copyright Office. Copyright law is pretty specific. Permission needs to be granted in either case. There may be some who are fine with their copyrighted work being copied for personal use, but I can tell you that most are not in any form. Take for example Elenis. I doubt that she would be fine with someone copying her cookie designs for personal use. The same applies to anyone who has copyrighted their work. Remember though that the work does not have to have the copyright symbol on it to be covered. My copyright attorney thought at first that I actually should not put the copyright symbol on my work as he thought it detracted from my design, but I wanted to feel covered as many do not realize that work is covered whether it has the symbol or not. After seeing the problems I have faced even with the symbol on, he is glad I do so.
"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
Reply
"I think every woman should have a blowtorch." - Julia Child
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post #28 of 29
Thanks for the info.

http://letsgetcaking.blogspot.com/

 

All this cake, and I've gained too much weight. LOL! I am now....The Cake Runner!

 

http://thecakerunner.blogspot.com/

Reply

http://letsgetcaking.blogspot.com/

 

All this cake, and I've gained too much weight. LOL! I am now....The Cake Runner!

 

http://thecakerunner.blogspot.com/

Reply
post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetcaking

I'm trying to understand this for personal use. If someone makes cookies or cake that are basically copying another person's design (Donald Duck, the mosquito cookies, etc...), I thought that was fine for home/personal use. I guess I think of it the same way I do of singing my favorite song from the radio with my siblings, or drawing cartoons for my kids.

Does the problem come, not from making the cookies or singing the song, but from photographing/recording the product and allowing others to see it?




I agree - it can be very confusing! And honestly, I'm not sure how to answer your question about the songs, so I'll stick to what I understand about designs...

I had a long discussion with a very helpful man in the Copyright office a while back. The way he explained it, regarding works of art, it's about unauthorized reproduction of the design, not whether or not it's a sold item. Copyrights protect the creator of the work (having done the "work" to make it originally) so that he/she has the right to decide how, when, and by whom it is used. From that black and white standpoint, it seems only fair that the creator be able to decide who, how, and when it is used..

He went on to say that when a person reproduces a design for home/personal use the chances of the person who created the design finding out are smaller, but that does not negate the infringement issue.

When you buy a Wilton character pan, you are buying limited rights to use the design. That's why on the pan paperwork it says for home use only. That's the permission the copyright holder has granted, by his choice to allow it's reproduction.
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