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"Safe" sugar syrup temp. for making IMBC or MBC?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
I have been looking at several Merengue Buttercream recipes from several professional cake decorators such as Colette Peters, Dede Wilson, Toba Garett, etc. and they all boil their sugar syrop to different temperatures, the range I've seen is from 238 to 250 degrees. I'm assuming the "safest" is 250?
Has anyone done any of these and any comments. I'll be serving kids so I really want something that is "safe" for them.

Thank you,
Naty
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post #2 of 25
IMHO, I would think heating it to 250 degrees in temperature would be safe ...
Cheryl a/k/a ntertayneme (n-ter-tayne-me)
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Cheryl a/k/a ntertayneme (n-ter-tayne-me)
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post #3 of 25
I read somewhere that the eggs don't really always cook properly even with the hot syrup, so I use the Mousseline Buttercream from Rose Levy Beranbaum's Cake Bible which only uses egg whites-- and I use dried whites so there is no safety issue.

Here is a link to one version of the recipe. I use hi-ratio shortening or Crisco rather than butter, but you can use any combination.

http://www.baking911.com/recipes/cakes/btrcrm_mousseline.htm
post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 
ntertayneme,
Thank you!! I have also heard of pasteurized egg whites or powdered egg whites. Are these sold in the supermaket or do they have to be mail ordered?
Thanks, Naty
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post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
ntertayneme,
Thank you!! I have also heard of pasteurized egg whites or powdered egg whites. Are these sold in the supermaket or do they have to be mail ordered?
Thanks, Naty
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post #6 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thank you itsacake for you reply. Where do I buy dried egg whites? I have merengue powder. Can I use that?

Thanks, Naty
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post #7 of 25
Meringue powder is dried egg whites.. I think that would work.
Cheryl a/k/a ntertayneme (n-ter-tayne-me)
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Cheryl a/k/a ntertayneme (n-ter-tayne-me)
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post #8 of 25
At 250 you would be going to the hard ball stage, which is not what you want for most recipes. The firm ball starts at 245 degrees. So it is imperitive you have an accurate thermometer, and finding that is a science within itself. The soft ball stage is 235° F240°, which is what most call for. Going higher or lower will not give you the proper results.

Italian Merignue will not get hot enough to kill the bacteria. Swiss will, but it is not as stable.
Using any substitute will not give you the same results.
Other recipes are not as stable, and some can not be left out as long, or at all. I think the Mousseline can only be left out for 6 hours.
post #9 of 25
just wondering how drying egg whites makes them safe- salmonella is very tough?
if you made smaller batches with less mass would that make a difference, that way the heat would get to all the whites
post #10 of 25
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Egg_&_Egg_Product_Safety/index.asp

8. Use Safe Egg Recipes
Egg mixtures are safe if they reach 160°F, so homemade ice cream and eggnog can be made safely from a cooked base. Heat the egg-milk mixture gently. Use a food thermometer to check the temperature or use a metal spoon (the mixture should coat the spoon). If in-shell pasteurized eggs are available, they can be used safely in recipes that wont be cooked.

Dry meringue shells are safe. So are divinity candy and 7-minute frosting, made by combining hot sugar syrup with beaten egg whites.
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post #11 of 25
Thread Starter 
Niki027, Thank you!!!! I want to use something that is safe for kids so what you suggested of the Mousseline BC sounds perfect........6 hours is more than enough time, the cake will only be out about 1 - 2 hours before it is eaten.

I actually have the Cake Bible, but I haven never made any of the recipes.....been too intimidated I guess.

Her Mousseline calls for 5 large egg whites. In case I wanted to do it with the Merengue Powder (Wilton) instead (too be safer), how much merengue powder and water do I use to substitute for the egg whites?

Thanks, Naty
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post #12 of 25
I found it for you (:

http://www.cakecentral.com/cake-decorating-ftopict-4904-italian.html

SquirrellyCakes wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

Apparently, I was correct in my assumption that much of the heat from the hot syrup is dissipated in the bowl and does not truly bring the temperature of the eggs to 160F which is the temperature they need to reach to kill off the salmonella.
post #13 of 25
Using egg subs and powders will give the buttercream an awful taste. You have to use real, fresh eggs or sacrifice a lot of quality.

Also be aware that these types of frostings to not take color well.

Hope that helps!
post #14 of 25
I haven't been doing this as long as some of you, so I'm going by what "The Cake Bible" says in terms of the Mousseline Buttercream. Rose Levy Beranbaum has a master's degree in food science, so I pretty much trust her not to poison me. She says this will keep two days at room temperature".

The recipe for Mousseline buttercream in this book says the syrup should be between 248 and 250 degrees. The adaptation on baking911 says the same thing--not surprising since it is credited to The Cake BIble.

Just the same, I don't want to use raw egg whites. I haven't had any trouble using dried egg whites which are not the same as meringue powder, but are simiolar enough that you can use them interchangably most of the time. The difference is that meringue powder has some sugar and maybe cornstarch in it. I don't have any around, so I'm not sure what is added, I just know some things are. The dried whites are just . It contains only pasteurized dried egg whites. It doesn't dissovle really well, but once it has, it works great. I think powdered whites are the same thing as dried--just different names.

I buy my egg whites at Whole Foods Markets. It is a natural foods supermarket. I have seen them at Trader Joe's. I haven't actually checked at the regular supermarket. (I never thought to look) If your grocery store doesn't have them, I'd say check health food stores.

Pasteurized eggs in the shell are available at at least one supermarket here here but the whites do not whip well. I've tried it a couple of times and decided the dried ones are less expensive, easier to keep around, and yield better results--at least for me.

While it is true that substituting any ingredient for another will not always yield the exact same results, some of us have various constraints we have to, or want to, work with, so we do the best we can. As obsessive as I am, I have to be willing to be a little flexible and strive for the best tasting results I can possibly get.
post #15 of 25
Heehee, well I have been baking for 41 years. In the old days, we used raw egg whites in our Royal Icing and such and nobody ever got sick. Less than 1% of eggs pose any risk for salmonella poisioning, but that is enough of a risk to avoid using eggs when they are not cooked to a safe temperature to insure that there is no risk. Heating taking the place of pasteurization. But heating your eggs is one thing, applying hot syrup to them and expecting it to do the same thing, is another due to the fact the heat dissipates elsewhere.
I find it all quite interesting that folks are raving about a fairly famous decorator's recipe for gumpaste when it uses raw egg whites. I have seen the recipe many times and there is no mention of using pasteurized eggs, strictly, egg whites. Personally I wouldn't use the recipe at all.
I think that many folks assume that decorators are also food safety experts. Anyone can write a cookbook or decorating book or come up with a recipe, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are knowledgable about food safety practices, even those few that have degrees in food sciences. Knowledge is changing all of the time as new information comes to light.
With regards to eggs, if the egg itself is cooked in a recipe and reaches the temperature of 160F, it is salmonella safe.
Just an additional note, wash your eggs and wash your hands, whenever you are handling eggs. Much of the bacteria can be on the actual eggshell itself in addition to inside the egg.
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