Doug,
YOU are the best - I agree 100% with everything that you said and you said it perfectly!!! And I put the wires directly into my cake! I don't have them in the cake for days - they are put in shortly before I deliver the cake. And I don't dip them in chocolate or wap them in plastic or foil or stick them in straws - after all what's the point?
It is amazing that any of us that have been around for 40, 50, 60 years have even survived this long with everything that we touch, breathe, eat and drink wanting to kill us in some way, shape or form.
All I'm trying to do is to "begin as I mean to go on." If a client were to question my use of something, I want to be able to answer with confidence. Therefore, I ask myself questions like, "Would I have an answer beyond 'everything will kill you eventually'" and "Is there a less controversial alternative?" I also want to be prepared in case the health dept. or some other legal authority questions me.
Yes, arsenic and other things have been used in things and probably still are for some things. Think about the stuff ladies used to put on their face for make-up that we now know was a bad idea. Why not explore these things ourselves in polite conversations and with research so we feel comfortable with our decisions?
Personally, I'm not interested in the PVC as a rolling pin; but to use it as supports for a cupcake stand. I've read to use food safe paint, but where do I get that? So far, my research has brought up one art website that argues that just about all paint is safe and some info on paint used to decorate plates that's food safe. It's not enough info yet for me to feel comfortable with it.
I've read that floral wire contains lead. Do I believe it? I neither believe nor disbelieve yet. I'm still gathering info. On the one hand, why would it contain lead and why would we use it if it does? On the other hand, we use stuff every day because either we think or someone says it's not harmfull in the amounts used.
I'm all for "to each their own" but I'm also a fan of exploration and helping each other out with information.
Doug, so glad to have read your post. Being new to decorating, I often come across posts here that tell me almost everything is unsafe for cakes and it's mind boggling. Ribbon, wires, pvc pipe, the list goes on. But how many people must use those who don't belong to a forum that tells them not to? I'd never have thought about not being able to use those.
I agree, society is fairly paranoid on a lot of things these days. It's not that I don't care at all about risks of certain things, especially with my kids... I do make sure that my babies have BPA free plastic bottles and I do try to choose organic foods for them in their first years, especially dairy and meat wise because of the antibiotic and hormone issues. But man, there are so many DON'Ts these days that I can't help but think some of it is overkill.
Unrelated to cake, but along the lines of societal paranoia, my son takes classes at the YMCA (gymnastics, swimming, etc). They allow NO photography of your child because you might accidentally include another child in your pictures and that child's parents wouldn't be aware of it. When I questioned why on earth that would matter, they said that many parents don't want pictures of their young girls in stranger's hands and so they don't allow it in their building. WHAT? Apparently these parents must not take their children to parks, beaches, etc because I'm pretty sure lots of my pictures of my kids include other kids in the background. People are so amazingly paranoid that it ruins it for the rest of us. Now I don't get to have any pictures of my 3 yr old boy doing his first sports.
Sorry, rant over. 
Again, thanks Doug, I really enjoyed your post.
Unrelated to cake, but along the lines of societal paranoia, my son takes classes at the YMCA (gymnastics, swimming, etc). They allow NO photography of your child because you might accidentally include another child in your pictures and that child's parents wouldn't be aware of it. When I questioned why on earth that would matter, they said that many parents don't want pictures of their young girls in stranger's hands and so they don't allow it in their building. WHAT? Apparently these parents must not take their children to parks, beaches, etc because I'm pretty sure lots of my pictures of my kids include other kids in the background. People are so amazingly paranoid that it ruins it for the rest of us. Now I don't get to have any pictures of my 3 yr old boy doing his first sports.
just like school districts that require a form for pics of child to be taken.
actually a false sense of protection.
as a journalism teacher, have to be very aware of the liability issues involved with photos.
According to Student Press Law Center and other lawyers specializing in journalism law....
only need a release when photo is use for COMMERCIAL purposes - such as an advertising brochure.
so the photo of the kids romping in gym - no release
the photo of the kids at McD's that is put in the McDs ad in the newspaper/yearbook - must have a release.
it goes back to "reasonable expectation of privacy"
sorry, schools, Y's, parks, beaches, etc. are not private places - no reasonable expectation of privacy.
in fact, the lawyers advised creating more trouble by having parents sign a release to allow photos (opt in) than signing a release not to allow (opt out) -- better to have the few say no, then try to get the majority, most who don't care anyhow, to say yes.
you can fight the Y on this, they are infringing your rights under the Constitution (1st amendment!) Take the photos and threaten to sue!
as for protecting their little girls - oh puhleeze -- what a fallacy! not in this age of Picasso/WebShots/Flikr, et. al!
---
see it's that same issue of
REASONABLEness
we've lost it.
Which is exactly what I said to them... "Why don't you just have parents sign a form saying they DON'T want their kid photographed and then we can do that on a case by case basis? Then if no one in our class signs that we can have pics?" They looked at me like I was nuts.
I had the same thought, to challenge this as far as how legal it is, but I'm wondering if they get away with it because we pay to be there... so it's not just a public place like a school or a park.
With regards to the little girls, it boggles my mind. I have a baby girl now, and I don't see the point in that thinking. I can't hide her from the world. Honestly, people take pictures of kids everywhere all the time... and we don't know what they do with them... but it's not affecting me or her if we don't know, and I'd rather assume that MOST people aren't even noticing my child in the back of the picture of their child.
Doug, how cool that you are a journalism teacher. I was an English/Drama teacher for 2 years before staying home with my little ones. I miss my teacher friends/co-workers. There is something I really enjoy about conversing with other educators.
In St. Martin (and I think in France, too) it is illegal to take pictures of someone else. It is also considered the height of rudeness. It's been that way for a long time.
BPA is actually a good example. Two years ago we didn't even think about it.
In St. Martin (and I think in France, too) it is illegal to take pictures of someone else. It is also considered the height of rudeness. It's been that way for a long time.
BPA is actually a good example. Two years ago we didn't even think about it.
1) laws different in different countries.
2) in this case -- the worry is you are taking a picture of YOUR child doing something -- say playing on the beach -- and in the background or off to the side where it can not be cropped out or avoided, is another child. So, you're supposed to not take the pic? Legally, in USA you can.
I thought someone might like a global perspective on the issue. I have my own opinion on it, of course. With all the swanky digital cameras today, it's easy enough in most cases to just get your own kid in the picture or crop out other kids digitally. Personally, I rarely run across this issue, except when the buzz goes around the college football field that security is on the look-out for cameras.
While the picture issue may be new to Americans, it's not new to other countries. BPA is new to us, yet there are probably countries where this isn't even on their radar yet.
To circle back around to the main topic, can PVC pipe that is used to carry domestic water supply be considered food safe? I don't recall reading here that any testing has been conducted to say, "yeah" or "nay." Does that mean it's not? Nope. Does that mean it is? Nope again. It seems to me that means it's a judgement call. I can make that call for myself and my family, but can I make it for clients? Will the health dept. make that call for me?
For now at least, and for me, this falls into the same category as, "I may lick the icing off my finger when it's my own cake, but not when it's someone else's."
valid points
can only speak to:
Will the health dept. make that call for me?
if they and the building codes department sign-off on your set-up then, yes they have made the call that it is food safe.
and
but can I make it for clients?
you already do, every cake, every ingredient, every item used to produce the product.
in my case, heaven forbid you should make something with cashews -- but that's such an odd, rare allergy how would you know or even think to ask?
=====
oh and on photos -- notice you said "crop it out"
sure - after the fact can photoshop it to death --
that is IF you're allowed to even take the photo in the first place. Her complaint was she was not even allowed to take ANY photo, even one with ONLY her child in it.
(AND yes, except when done by journalists working for news agencies, it is rude to take PURPOSEFUL photos of others with out their permission -- photos where they are but background objects/filler that's different.)
---
as for global perspective:
when in Rome......
yes, must follow local laws. And for the poster in question, her rights under USA law are being infringed.
Doug, you are so down to earth I love it.
right now I am working on a wedding cake that the bride told me months ago save all the boxes and containers that I will have used for the cake. Her nephew has peanut allergies and the parents want to make sure I that if I use anything with nuts he doesn't eat any cake. Thats fine I will take it right along with the cake. I just made sure the bride knew that I do make peanutbutter cookies with my mixer and she says that is ok as long as there is no peanutbutter left on the mixer. She says as long as it is washed well things will be fine. I hope she is right and I have no worries.
Thanks all for the tips on PVC.
I agree, we all worry so much these days...but sometimes we can't help it! I am a nurse and nothing ever used to phase me until my husband was diagnosed with cancer two years ago at age 27!!! he was a healthy, young, athletic guy... it really makes you wonder how our environment affects us...
Doug.....you always make me laugh!! So many good points...still laughing!!
Thanks all for the tips on PVC.
I agree, we all worry so much these days...but sometimes we can't help it! I am a nurse and nothing ever used to phase me until my husband was diagnosed with cancer two years ago at age 27!!! he was a healthy, young, athletic guy... it really makes you wonder how our environment affects us...
Doug.....you always make me laugh!! So many good points...still laughing!!
so sorry to hear about your hubby.
just never know do you. Between genetics (like that gene that some women care that make all but certain to breast cancer or ovarian cancer) to the "modern chemicals" of "good" living, something is going to get you for sure.
(in my case could be little more than getting out of bed in the morning, the way I fall out of it! not a pretty sight!)
here's hoping he has a complete recovery with a permanent remission.
(there's hope, just look at Lance Armstrong! --- on second thought don't -- he makes me feel sooooo guilty as I stuff an extra piece of chocolate cake in my mouth!)
I just don't get how it could be questioned that water safe PVC pipe is not safe for touching a cake? I understand how things NOT touching our food or water sources can be questioned... but... ???
If everyone is drinking water from these pipes, what new danger exactly are you exposing them to by rolling their fondant with them?
"if they and the building codes department sign-off on your set-up then, yes they have made the call that it is food safe."
Isn't that the equivalent of: if the beef is certified, the horns must be, too?
no...
beef isn't certified until AFTER it's butchered --- the horns are long since gone along with the hoofs -- often to be boiled down along with bones to make.....
wait for it....
GELATIN! (yep the stuff in Jell-O!)
"if they and the building codes department sign-off on your set-up then, yes they have made the call that it is food safe."
Isn't that the equivalent of: if the beef is certified, the horns must be, too?
My Father in Law was a USDA inspector for 30 years and beef is certified for individual processing as specific cuts. Doesn't mean all processors are as stringent on their policies but that is the chance everyone takes when buying products from anywhere. AND organic beef still has hormones in it.
There is a pretty good example of he organic hype on the latest episode of Penn & Tellers Bullshit. A lot of information on that show!
Example: My FIL absolutely loved a specific brand of barbeque sauce only available in North Carolina. He would get cases of it. Upon a USDA inspection they found an open area in the ventilation over the cooking vats between the grill and the fans . These were HUGE vats. Well they found feathers and "stuff" on the fans , come to find out birds had been flying up into the vents , hitting the fans , getting pulverized and dropped back down into the cooking vats. YYYUUUUUMMMMMM!
My FIL still ate the BBQ sauce he said maybe the birds were what gave it the extra favor!
He recently died of Mesothelioma , it has been traced back to asbestos in the packing houses he used to inspect produce in.
So you never know where or in what form a potential hazard may lie, but they are pretty much everywhere.
Sure if you don't want to use something great for yo but as long as it is deemed food safe and someone else wants to use something they shouldn't have to eel like a criminal.
P.S. I do put the wires I use for cakes into a coffee stirrer, because 1) they seem dirty to me and 2) a package of floral wire I bought said "may contain lead" Lead content is what makes it soft and flexible. But if you don't want to, you have been given the same information as me and it is your decision ... fine with me! 
I just don't get how it could be questioned that water safe PVC pipe is not safe for touching a cake? I understand how things NOT touching our food or water sources can be questioned... but... ???
If everyone is drinking water from these pipes, what new danger exactly are you exposing them to by rolling their fondant with them?
Exactly
Doug,
Still making me laugh, it's so true something will get us for sure...for me it's that damn chocolate!!!
LOL- forgot about the gelatin. How about the hide, then? Good for blankets, but not so good for food? Does that work?
I do hope everyone is taking this as I am: an exploration, search for information, and a good-hearted debate.
I absolutely understand the inside of the PVC is deemed safe. My question is about the outside of the pipe- which is the part that is touching the fondant or cake if you use it to build frames or a stand or whatever.
I have no idea if the outside is the same stuff as the inside. I don't know whether they put a special coating on the outside to make it sturdier, last longer, or whatever. I do know that it doesn't hurt to ask, explore, and research, and maybe even engage in a nice debate online about it.
LOL- forgot about the gelatin. How about the hide, then? Good for blankets, but not so good for food? Does that work?
I do hope everyone is taking this as I am: an exploration, search for information, and a good-hearted debate.
I absolutely understand the inside of the PVC is deemed safe. My question is about the outside of the pipe- which is the part that is touching the fondant or cake if you use it to build frames or a stand or whatever.
I have no idea if the outside is the same stuff as the inside. I don't know whether they put a special coating on the outside to make it sturdier, last longer, or whatever. I do know that it doesn't hurt to ask, explore, and research, and maybe even engage in a nice debate online about it.
hide also gone before inspection & certification - main use LEATHER (as in these shoes are KILLING me!)
most plastic products start as little pellets of plastic that are then formed under high pressure (melting depends on actual method of forming)
pipe is extruded (think of fondant coming out of one of those ejectors or icing out of piping bag)
as such the composition of the pipe is the same all the way through.
now as to a special coating, never heard of one being applied. But, since the chief enemy of plastic is UV light and water pipes are underground and in cabinets where that's not a problem, wouldn't need coating for that.
They do stamp markings on the outside which have to be removed.
Someone here said they used steel wool to do that. Haven't tried it myself as not a big enough workspace to need that big of roller -- the wilton solid one already maxes out my space!
By simply buffing the outside with very fine sand paper or steel wool, any coating would be removed, trick being to buff so it's still smooth and not roughed up.
actually, I'd be more worried about armatures built from steel pipe. All kinds of impurities possible and usually an oil film coating to help prevent rust. I've notice in a lot of the challenges that you'll see steel pipe covered by PVC pipe.
----
btw: another potential gross out:
beef jerky -- raw beef seasoned and dried! that's right not really cooked.
mmmmm... break out the box fan:
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/beef-jerky-recipe/index.html
amazing some of the stuff people eat (need I say Haggis!?)
Yes, I guess I have to agree with Doug......but I am over protective with my family.can't help it.
LOL- forgot about the gelatin. How about the hide, then? Good for blankets, but not so good for food? Does that work?
I do hope everyone is taking this as I am: an exploration, search for information, and a good-hearted debate.
I absolutely understand the inside of the PVC is deemed safe. My question is about the outside of the pipe- which is the part that is touching the fondant or cake if you use it to build frames or a stand or whatever.
I have no idea if the outside is the same stuff as the inside. I don't know whether they put a special coating on the outside to make it sturdier, last longer, or whatever. I do know that it doesn't hurt to ask, explore, and research, and maybe even engage in a nice debate online about it.
Like I said in an earlier post PVC is the same material all the way through, No coating. 1 solid substance.
I use steel wool to remove the markings , It is fine enough as to not leave gouges in the PVC (sandpaper might).
I also use PVC to make drying racks for my gumpaste flowers.
LOL- forgot about the gelatin. How about the hide, then? Good for blankets, but not so good for food? Does that work?
I do hope everyone is taking this as I am: an exploration, search for information, and a good-hearted debate.
I absolutely understand the inside of the PVC is deemed safe. My question is about the outside of the pipe- which is the part that is touching the fondant or cake if you use it to build frames or a stand or whatever.
I have no idea if the outside is the same stuff as the inside. I don't know whether they put a special coating on the outside to make it sturdier, last longer, or whatever. I do know that it doesn't hurt to ask, explore, and research, and maybe even engage in a nice debate online about it.
Like I said in an earlier post PVC is the same material all the way through, No coating. 1 solid substance.
I use steel wool to remove the markings , It is fine enough as to not leave gouges in the PVC (sandpaper might).
I also use PVC to make drying racks for my gumpaste flowers.
Great idea with the PVC pipes.
I will post them tommorow . I am out of town today, cleaning house for my gramma & grampa. they are old so I clean for them and the elderly neighbor couple once a month. I will be back home tommorrow and will post the measurements of my rack hahhahahahahhahahaha
I crack me up!
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