Well, how the heck would you make tiramisu????

Actually, we haven't established that. His recipe listed on the Food Network site indicates that he does NOT cook, or heat his egg whites.

The only kind of egg salmonella that is a problem today is formed in chicken ovaries before the shell is formed . It is carried inside the shell, generally in the yolk.

Salmonella carried on the outside of the shell from external fecal contamination has not been a problem since it was identified in the 70s and strict disinfecting regulations were passed.

Originally Posted by Sox-n-Pats

Quote:

Originally Posted by artscallion



Official FDA stance...no raw eggs, ever, at all. Though the chance of contamination from egg whites (whites aren't conducive to bacteria like yolks are) is minute in healthy adults

Well, how the heck would you make tiramisu????

i always cook my egg mixture...maybe it's still a potential hazard?? not that i sell it anyway!

The sugar preserves the egg whites, just like it does in royal icing...and just like regular buttercream with milk to thin down is preserved.

I am totally all for safety, and I'm the first one to check expiration dates and sniff anything perishable before using...I always refrigerate my cakes (mostly to keep them away from the kids, and aid in transport....they taste best room temp) but I do leave butter out overnight and I don't like to be crazy about things....its one thing to be careful and have common sense, but I don't like the paranoia that seems to be coming out these days.

Preserving something from spoiling is a completely separate and different issue. Salmonella doesn't care if the egg whites are spoiled or well preserved. These are two different issues. preserving prevents things from turning rancid/sour/curdling, etc. It has nothing to do with bacteria.

BTW, I'm not advocating any particular side with egg whites, I'm only on the side of accurate information on which your own decisions can be made.

As for butter, butter is made with pasteurized milk. As long as you keep it wrapped/covered it will be safe for a few days at room temp. Keep in mind that with butter it IS a preserving issue. Things that effect butters and turn it bad/rancid are light, heat and exposure to air. Salted butter will last longer than unslated because salt acts as a preservative. I have been known to keep my salted butter out in a covered butter dish for a few days if I have a nice bread in the house. I never keep unsalted butter out because I don't use it on bread. And butter I use in baking I generally don't want to be above 60°, even for creaming. So I generally keep that in the fridge and use the microwave to get it where I need it.

Baked goods, like cake itself, or bread do not, in themselves, need to be refrigerated. It's only perishable fillings and such that would need refrigeration. I seldom use perishable fillings/frostings. So my cakes are ALWAYS out once they're decorated.

I'd love to try the "real thing" if you're feeling generous enough to share your recipe with a fellow Sox and Pat's fan


I know....that game last night had my heart in my throat, I couldn't believe KC came back from being down 9 - 1! Thank God the Sox pulled it off. They're winning again today 5 - 0.....Go Sox!!

The milk in most European countries is not the same as our milk. Our milk is pasteurized which basically kills everything living in it. In many European countries they drink raw, unpasteurized milk which still contains the living active enzymes in it. This is why they can leave it out. Even if it sours, sour milk is not in itself a bad thing. We use it in cooking and baking all the time.

But pasteurized milk, having no living enzymes, does not sour.; it rots. It's a dead product that rots and becomes inedible. Whole different thing from Europe.

Respectfully disagree; have gotten sour milk from the grocery store here in Delaware. It's nasty. Not at all like the sour cream that you use to cook with. Have not tried setting out cream to sour; don't think I want to when cream is expensive and sour cream is cheap.

Still wouldn't leave the milk out long enough to get to room temperature, even. I like it cold even if it's still good!

Both of these statements are only partially correct. I have NO clue about "raw milk" except I would never drink it because it isn't pasturized and therefore clean. I've seen too much cow poop in milk to drink it raw. Milk in boxes at room temperature is STERILIZED and does not require refrigeraion until it is opened. You'll see some sterilized milks in the U.S. I think the brand is Horizon and is organic.

You're actually not disagreeing, varika. That's what I said. The milk in America does not sour when left out, it rots. When I talked about the sour milk we use in baking, I meant purchased buttermilk, sour cream etc. In Europe, raw milk sours, which is not necessarily bad.

Spain and France, among other European countries, also have ultra-pasturized, box stable milk, which may be what Sox was referring to. But it is not the milk we have commonly available in America.

All I know is that the milk had a SOUR taste to it. When you say "milk sours," that's what I think of. It didn't have chunks or something, like when you add lemon juice to milk without stirring it up, it just. Tasted. Sour.

If "soured milk" means something else, then I guess I'm not disagreeing with you.

I can't tell any more if you're disagreeing with me. But Soured milk does mean something else. It's a good, intentional souring of milk with acids/bacterial fermentation, like making sour cream or buttermilk, or adding lemon juice to milk or enzymes in raw milk.

As opposed to Spoiled milk which is what you get when you leave milk out. Yes it has a sour taste. But my point is that it's a completely different thing from the good, intentionally soured milk mentioned above. It only tastes sour because it's rotting. Though it tastes sour, it's not 'souring' in the good way described above.

I've lived (and travelled) in Europe for more than half my life, and the only times I've ever seen people drink raw milk is way out in bufu-egypt. I've never seen raw milk available in any store, in any country. Milk which is kept at room temp in boxes is way ultra-pasteurized... I mean, why do you think it can be kept at room temp for weeks and even months?

Bacteria need a certain amount of water to reproduce. The sugar locks up available water enough to significantly slow the process of spoiling. Obviously, other facters also affect it, like heat, but if you start out killing off the bacteria in the food, and then lock up most of the available water, then the bacteria will have a much more difficult time working on that.

Using meringue-based buttercream and then covering it with fondant pretty much locks out the bacteria to the point where it will be several days before spoilage is an issue.

It's just science.

Yes, I know. I did mention the ultra-pasteurized boxed shelf stable milk in my next post. But milk is typically consumed unpasteurized in more rural areas of Europe, and raw milk can typically be found in small amounts at stores in large cities. Maybe you never came across it or visited the country. But whatever, I really don't want to get all hung up in minor detail debates about what milk is available where and does what.

I mentioned raw milk and ultra-pasteurized boxed milk because PP said something to the effect of "they leave milk on the shelves unrefrigerated in Europe, why Doesn't the FDA let us?" I have no idea which kind of European milk, specifically, she was talking about. My ONLY real point was that shelf stable milk in Europe is not the same thing as generally available milk in America, which can not be left out.

To add to that point, if you look in the juice aisle in some supermarkets in the states these days, there IS milk in a box there. Nobody I know likes the flavor of it; even my cats refuse to drink it. I suppose it could possibly be something like soy milk, though; I haven't looked closely at the boxes to tell.