Jackie, just wanted to say thank you because I know you must spend so much time making this such a great site for all of us!!

Thank you Jackie. Although, that still is a problem for me, I do see where you're coming from. Sorry we're making your job harder. But you are doing a fabulous job with this site!

Purple Petunia

I agree on the skill level thing. there is no way to determine that, it would be too hard. Also I own a business but I think there are a lot of people here that are more skilled than I am.. I don't think that really matters. JMHO

Interesting topic. I have been reading the posts about this and I also have an opinion.
First of all, just because I have been decorating cakes for many years, I may not have done half as many as those of you who have been doing a lot of cakes for only a year or two. I have never taken the Wilton courses and when I try something new, it is new to me and I learn it by looking at another cake and figuring it out or by following instructions I see written somewhere.
I don't often post pictures of my cakes, that is just a thing I have, I also don't like getting my picture taken. I post pictures when people ask for them and if I happen to have a picture , but that is about it. It isn't a question of not wanting to share or not wanting anyone to copy, it is just the way I am.
I don't consider myself a professional decorator, just a person with a bit of knowledge about decorating and a fair bit of knowledge about baking.
I have only voted once on one cake competition here. I must say, I am not keen on the way folks vote. I think that every single cake should be voted on, in fact, I wish that was mandatory, vote for one, vote for all. That is just my opinion. I think that otherwise it is a bit offensive to the participants and also, I do think sometimes it is a bit of a popularity contest, not so much based on the cake itself but who did the cake. I also think that some folks rate the cakes very low and I cringe when I note that. So, as a result, I will no longer vote on the cakes entered in the contests.
I am not critiquing what Jackie herself is doing here, but rather a bit put off by how the members are using the contests even though they are well within the rules. It is Jackie's site, she can do as she sees fit. I am only a guest here.
I think many sites have many members who only look and do not post. That is unfortunate, but true, but again, well within the membership rules. Not everyone has time to post or comment. And yes, there will always be folks that will take, but not give. It is true of all of the sites.
I don't think you can ever please everyone. If you post a lot, people think you are a bit of a "Know-it-all" and sometimes feel that their task is to cut you down to size. Some folks resent sharing information, others take other folk's information and post it as their own. Others won't share a thing. Some will argue every point anyone makes.
I guess it doesn't matter to me what status folks have, when they enter a contest. I just enjoy seeing all of the various takes on a theme.
I just wish that folks were kinder when they vote and kind when they post.
Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

I wonder if I have any right to to be adding my two cents to this topic. I guess I fall in to the category of those that never/hardly ever post on the site. As you can see I have only posted 3 this would make 4 times since I have been a member here. Don;t worry I am not trying to boost my ranking just to enter the competition. I have no intention of entering. I may not actively post to cakecentral, however I have referred many other cake decorators to this site. Helping the "CC Family" to grow I guess. I suppose the point I am making is that different people contribute in different ways. You may prefer to give advice, some maybe too intimidated to chat and others may prefer to expose others to this site.


As for the issue of the home decorator vs the professional, I personally think that should encourage us All to do our best. It's kind of like a race where you have the top contender and the underdog. You can bet you bottom dollar that the underdog is gonna give it the best he/she has and not quit before the gun even went off. If you lose, oh well at least you tried your best and hopefully improve. If you win that's icing on the cake. That's just my way of thinking. I love a challenge nothing in life worth having comes easy.

Jackie, I know this decision ultimately lies with you but how are you going to prevent people from rapidly posting 20 times? And how will you determine if they rapidly posted 20 times just to enter the contest or if their posts were 'legitimate' so to speak? I dont think saying oh you need to have 20 post will do it. Just a suggestion and it's more complicated but at least I brought something to the table. Maybe You have to be a member x number of weeks/months prior to this contest was announced AND have contributed x amount of post during that time frame.

Contrary to what some said, making 20 post is not really an indicator of how much time or effort went in to being a part of this community. I can make 20 post in say five minutes. Yet, one quality post may take me 30 minutes of reading what everyone else said and thinking of how to respond.

Now on the topic of fairness, I have seen a few comments staring that some of you would only vote for names you know. Hmmm, seems a bit like a popularity contest not a fair contest. Correct me if I am wrong. It would be interesting if the name of the person submitting the cake was kept secret. (Yes I know no way of knowing who is telling who which cake they made.)

Princess (Oh darn i need a princess smilie.. I feel naked w/o it)

Hhmn, Cake Princess, you made me think of another interesting point. Apparently and this is just hearsay, other entrants in other previous contests, had all of their friends, acquaintances, co-workers, family members well you get the idea - sign up for memberships and vote for them in these contests. So that is another aspect to it. If you are going to limit the contests to frequent posters, then shouldn't you also limit the votes being cast to frequent posters or persons of long-standing memberships to make things balanced.
Funny thing is, it never occured to me that folks would do this kind of thing, to win a contest, but apparently they do. Smacks to me of rigging the vote but then, in a day and age of reality tv programmes where anything goes, I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise.
Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

To some people winning a competition, any competion is an ultimate high...and they will go all out to win!

In cake decorating competitions, maybe for some it is about winning so that you can add it to your portfolio, so that you can advertise and/or brag about it, I don't know for sure what the driving force might be. We would all like to feel we have a chance of winning, but as it has been pointed out, the main goal for the average person here at CC, I believe, is improving our skill and learning all we can to apply to that skill, not winning a competition!

As far as voting for or giving high ratings only to your friends or acquainances, I think that stinks.

Perhaps it would be more fair if only Jackie (and the computer) knows who decorated the cakes. Of course, those who are determined to win could still easily "stack the deck" simply by their henchmen knowing which cake is theirs.

All of the complexities and the problems do make it difficult to feel really good about entering the contests. I'm really sorry it has gotten so complicated! Janice

I don't know if anyone was thinking I meant that I would only vote for friends or aquaintances...if so I might have not been clear...I said ( or meant to) that I would vote for someone that I knew was a regualr member and posted and was an active member of the community even if their cake was not quite as good as one of the "drop in members"...I didn't mean I would vote for someone I know better than another even if the others cake was better. I love all of the folks here

Cake contest, or any contest in the matter should be just fun. You should vote however you see fit...whether you vote on names that contribute more here, or who have been here longer, or putting that all aside and picking your favorites then listing them in decenting order and go from there... you should vote and do so with confidence. I will personally make sure I look at ALL in the same way and give "points" for originality, beautification, and such and make sure that each cake gets some vote. I also have decided not to enter contest (for now). Because I feel I take votes from others that are better then mine, and it seem to have been proven. I was told that my friends and family members that are on here, or at least registered here, have came on and voted for just my cake, and not look at others. This was not how I felt they were. I thought they had more integrity then that, but now I also understand they are my friends and family and they know how hard I am on myself, so they wanted to boast my confidence in my cakes. I was upset, but eventually understood, and no hard feelings are left.

*edited to add words and rethink what and how I posted from (for now) on.

No, Kayday, I didn't think that you meant you'd only vote for friends! Voting for regular contributors that we recognize over "drop ins" is totally understandable. Sorry if you thought I was talking about you specifically. Janice

Well, I agree that there is not one cake that doesn't deserve a three star rating. You have to understand that generally most people who are not "into cake decorating" cannot or do not ice a cake well, let alone decorate it. Every last cake I have ever seen on this site is good!
I guess I feel that even if Colette Peters entered a cake in this contest, if because of the rules and the way the contest was set up, she was entitled to enter, well then if her cake was the best cake entered, it would deserve to win. If it wasn't the best cake, it shouldn't win even if folks just plain love her and she is really popular.
I think seeing the fact that this person who won, doesn't post here normally and seeing folks pointing that out, detracted from the fact that she won the contest. Her cake was fabulous and she deserved to win because many members voted for her cake. There were no stipulations that you had to have had a minimum posting requirement or have been a member for a specific length of time in this contest's rules. So I found it a bit upsetting that she might read all of the comments and feel that people felt she somehow cheated by entering. I understand why the comments were made, I really do, but I don't think people really thought that by making these comments they were perhaps creating an unfriendly atmosphere. Personally if I were that lady, I would think twice about ever coming back on the site after seeing the references in a couple of places.
I find that on all cake sites there is a certain amount of pettiness that always seems to have to rear its ugly head. Most of the time on this site, it is minimal, but it does exist, unfortunately. Though the comments were meant to point out what many feel is an unfair fact, I think, in the long run they might offend a lot of folks, especially newbies or folks that have been on the site for awhile, but just have not felt ready to post yet.
The bottom line is that Jackie created these contests out of the goodness of her heart and supplies the prizes out of her own pocket. I don't believe there is any way to make a contest fool-proof, even Wilton has has problems with their contests. I think we have to accept contests will always have issues because of the participants.
I think that the folks that enter contests are putting themselves on the line and deserve better ratings because it takes a lot of guts to do that. There is not one cake entered that didn't have one or two or several admirable qualities.
I applaude folks that take a chance and try something new and enter it. I also applaude folks that know their limitations and stick with what they are good at and enter a cake that may not be complex to some folks, but is extremely well done. Then I applaude the folks that take an unusual idea or twist on things or a sentimental approach. And I applaude folks that take an original design, try to copy it and give credit to the original creator!
But mostly I applaude folks for just plain sharing their work with all of us. That takes a lot of courage!
I understand the sentiments behind voting for regular members and such but I still think that it is better to vote for what you feel is the best cake based on the cake, not the creator.
Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

CAKEPRINCESS...........

You have EVERY right to enter your thoughts by posting....we all learn from each other!!!! I for one happen to be very glad you are here sharing now.. Maybe it will encourage others to do so!

I totally agree Flavurdfun!
My fear is that folks will not want to share by posting. Then who do we go after? Do the posters that just ask for help not qualify because they are not helping? Do the posters that only post responses to requests for help not qualify because they only contribute responses not questions? Do the folks that only respond to fondant questions not qualify?...
I think it could become very dangerous territory and be detrimental to the site.
I think Cake Princess's response is a natural one, a new poster afraid that because they haven't posted they shouldn't be commenting. Pretty soon you could have a whole lot of folks walking on eggs, afraid to post.
Food for thought.
Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

I am kinda shocked by some of these comments. I took entering the contest as a way to try something new and push my skills. Don't really ever expect to win but since I don't have anyone to really bake for it gave me a reason. This is the first cake I have made in over a year and we are undergoing a kitchen remodel so my "kitchen" is all of my supplies shoved into our entry along with my piano lid holding cereal, and my dining table holding my microwave, toaster over, mixer, plates...you get my point. I think everyone should try to push themselves creativly as that is the only way to grow. I'd love to see contests in the future where say it has to have a certain element on it...stringwork, flowers, etc or a certain color, or all chocolate. This way we'd be forced to try something new. To enter or not enter because you think you may or may not win is cheating yourself out this chance and this challenge!

Well put, Beebug123!!! (To enter or not enter because you think you may or may not win is cheating yourself out this chance and this challenge!)

I think having 20 posts is a good idea, like it or not! Maybe it's just me, but I can't see why anyone would be afraid to post, even if it's just a "Good job" after someone posted a pic or "what a great idea." There's no way to ever make any contest full-proof, even the olympics. That's just life. I think some of you are just blowing this way out of porportion(sp)

Thanks to Jackie for dealing with all of us and giving us a place to share, learn and grow!

So I went To bed last night thinking about this. And I have come to The conclusion that all of this really boils down to pettiness. Here is what I liken this mess to.

A person moves in to a new neighbourhood. The established folks in that neighbourhood host regular social events like pie making contest. The new neighbour decides to enter the contest but The established neighbours say. "Oh no dear, you have not lived here long enough to be allowed to enter our contest. You are not a member of the elite yet."

Whoa, way to make the new neighbour feel welcomed. I personally think that every member of Cake Central should be allowed to participate regardless of how much or how little they post. Like I said everyone participates in their own little way to make this site a success. Not everyone likes to be in the spotlight. Some prefer to work behind the scenes.


Exclusion is always a great way to make others feel welcome and a part of the group. It will sure encourage non-posters to post to the forums.


Well I have Said all I will say regarding this topic. I hope that this matter is resolved in a way that's fair to all members of this site.


Princess

Hello everyone, I just found out about this site a couple of months ago and I have to agree with everyone that I think it would be fair to at least limit entries to those who share and posts regularly. I have not felt comfortable sharing info because I feel like such a newbie...I've only had one course and have dealt with only buttercream icing and royal icing. I'm learning more techniques and appreciate all the assistance and recommendations given in the forum. I read a lot and am just now starting to post. As a matter of fact, this is my fourth, I believe.

Lisa

Haha, well I am not certain if I am one of those people that are "Blowing it out of proportion", or not, but that is not my intention. I don't see this as a fight, I see it as a discussion. And I fully appreciate that everyone has a right to express the way they feel about things as that is where the topic was heading and that is what Jackie was asking for.
It is not my decision, that is true and I do have an opinion that is also true.
I am worried that this might all end up making things a bit on the mean-spirited side. Sometimes these kinds of discussions have that effect.
This has happened several times on this site already, though maybe not as often as it happens on some other sites, that is true.
I like to look at all aspects of a discussion or an issue and consider the effects on all of the people involved. I must say when I read this post and others that I was concerned that the lady that actually won this competition, would feel badly if she was to read the references to her in all of this. I would have been hurt myself. It was like it was being said that she did not deserve to win because she doesn't post here. It was also stated in another post that she would likely never offer any help to others that might want to learn how to do a cake like hers. That bothered me, it may be true and it may well be not true but it isn't a nice thing to say or assume. And the statement being made would make me think twice about ever posting if I was in her shoes.
I understand why it was said, because folks felt the winner should be a regular. But this lady entered the contest according to the rules as they were stated. I don't like the way members rate some cakes incredibly low or only rate the cake they want to win, ignoring most or all of the others, but then again, they are following the rules as stated, so I can dislike this. I can even protest it by not voting, but I cannot say they did not follow rules.
I find that new members sometimes have a rough time on sites. Sometimes they get jumped on for every bit of advice they offer, like some folks are just waiting for them to make what they feel is a mistake. It is almost like they haven't earned the privilege to even post or have an opinion. I know personally that has happened to me, even on this site. I know new members sometimes get ignored on sites too.
Gosh sometimes you feel like you have to have your own gang there supporting you, just like a gang of highschool girls.
The end result is you lose members over things like that, they don't want to be attacked or criticized or be subjected to pettiness, so they just leave. Well, when they leave we all suffer a bit.
Then things quiet down for awhile, then folks start posting again, then it all starts over again. Unfortunately, that is the reason that sites have to have moderators.
People have different reasons for participating in contests, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the reasons they may have.
I think that we have to be careful and exercise good judgement in how we react to things. I will give an example. Take the July 4th Cake Contest. Now it likely never dawned on a lot of folks that July 4th is strictly an American celebration and really a contest for a cake to celebrate this day, excludes anyone not of American descent. I know that a lot of Americans assume it is a holiday everywhere, I know this because many know I am a Canadian and still ask me what I do for July 4th. Every country has their own national holidays just as every religions has its own celebrations. So what would happen if say a Canadian or European or... entered the contest? Would it offend folks because they were not of the right nationality? What about Christmas cake contests, would it offend folks if a non-Christian submitted a cake?
Would you be offended as an American if I said I was excluded from the contest because I celebrate July 1st as Canada Day but not July 4th because I am not American. Should I even have the right to vote on the cakes submitted? What would happen if I entered a Canadian flag cake into the contest? But common sense dictates to me that this is an American site and it is owned by an American so of course a 4th of July Cake Contest would be a good concept and since it is her site, she doesn't need to consider how other nationalities may or may not feel left out. Personally I admire the way that Americans show their patriotism, it is a good example for the rest of us and I enjoy looking at the cakes.
I think that exclusion can be a dangerous thing just as lack of tolerance and understanding can cause issues.
Having a minimum posts rule that is posted before a contest begins, will eliminate any further issues like this one, that is true. And if that is what Jackie wants to do and what the majority want, then that will be the rules folks have to follow.
Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

Ok guys i was thinking about this also, i was a bit rude i think in another post about this subject. Then as i sat an thought about it i relized for the mothers day contest i only voted for a few cakes thati liked. for the fathers day contest i voted for every single cake. EVERY CAKE which means i voted for the winner. and to be honest i gave her cake a 5 star mostly because it was a great cake and my hubby loves to golf and he loved it. Now with that said i also gave 5 stars to a few others. Now think about it we as members of this site vote on the cakes. SO we as members voted for her cake to win. Maybe not all of us but enough of us did. It wasnt until this was posted that i even went back to see who made the cake and saw she had not posted on the forums. Yes it does upset me but, she does post her cakes so in a way isnt that sharing ideas???? so i am sorry for my other post i didnt mean to offend anyone

Ok, I got to thinking about this topic, and reading all of your well thought out responses and I agree that I do not want to exclude people based on forum activity. I do want to have some method of safeguarding against people who join only to enter contests or to give their vote to someone in a contest.

I was thinking of creating a probationary period at the start of membership. For example when you signup you cannot compete in, or vote on, any contest for the first 30 days. This way it would take alot of forsight for someone to "cheat" the system. In this way no members are punished for lack of posting but we protect the integrity of the contests.

As for the voting method, I cannot reasonably implement a system that forces everyone to vote for all the cakes entered, and based on the scoring results I am seeing, this has not been the problem that it is perceived to be. All of the cakes are getting alot of votes, and the scoring has been very close. We do not have a situation of a small group of cakes running away with the contests.

For those of you who think that protesting the system by choosing not to vote is helping improve the community, I have to disagree. By withholding your votes you only increase the impact of everyone elses vote. If your reason for not voting is because you don't believe in contests, that is fine, don't vote, but if you just have a problem with how others are voting, you are solving nothing by standing aside.

Finally please everyone remember these contests are supposed to be fun, don't take the results so seriously. I mean the prize is hardly worth the effort it would take to cheat the system. Please give me your feedback on the probation status idea. I am trying to find the solution that is fair to everyone, excludes no one, and protects the integrity of the community.

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to this thread, all of you have been extremely helpful.

One more thing I wanted to touch on:

These are excellent points and I am glad SquirellyCakes brought them up. During the holidays, the annual contest is a "Holiday" cake contest, and the rules state it must be in the theme of the holidays, whether its a generic "winter" theme, kwanzaa, channakka (spelling?) or any other religeous/national/cultural theme that celebrates the season.

Yes, I am an American, and the 4th of July contest is mostly based on the American Independence day, however the main theme for the contest is patriotism. If someone wanted to enter a Canada Day flag, or a Mexican, or Israeli flag, or any country for that matter to show pride in thier country, this would be perfectly acceptable. The main them has to be "patriotism" I do not think I made a very good job of explaining this in the rules, and I will create a better description for future contests. These contests were never meant to be as esoteric as they are perceived.

Being an American, I am biased toward using American holidays as contest themes, this was not meant to alienate anyone, it was simply the easiest and most obvious way for me to go. But I have loads of ideas for future contests from the community, and remember to keep those ideas flowing and share them with me. If you are particularly shy, and do not want to make a public post, you can always Private Message me or one of the moderators with your idea.

Thank you, Jackie! The probationary period sounds like a good resolution for the contest entries and voting!

The first contest that I voted in, Mother's Day, I only voted for the ones that I really liked. Later, it was suggested that each one should get a vote and after thinking that over, I agreed! Everybody who goes to the work and thought involved to bake and enter a cake deserves the votes! May I also say that voting for the July 4th contest is going to be really tough, they are all beautiful!

As far as the holidays and cake occasions go, I would guess that the majority of us are in the USA and it is pretty natural to go with those holidays we regularly celebrate!

Again, thanks Jackie! Janice

i think the probation is a great idea. and just to point something out. i went back and looked at a bunch of the pictures of people who dont post in the forums and notice they had answered questions that people posted with the pics. So i would like to apologize just because they arent posting in the forums for what ever reason they are still giving help and explaining how they did some of thier cakes its just in the galleries with the pics. Jackie i think maybe we could do a Cinco De Mayo contest next year. Maybe in a month that their isnt a holiday per say we could have a celebration cake contest. which could cover anything we feel like celebrating. this would allow for a wider range in the cakes being submited. just a few ideas what do you think?

Actually, I did find the Mother's Day contest did show quite a disparency in the number of votes cast. Some cakes barely were looked at or viewed. Many were marked quite low, I noted this from the beginning of the contest. These two factors influenced how I felt about voting. It was my first personal experience with the contests on this site. No question that the winning cake deserved to win at all, just that the other cakes deserved more attention by the members.
If you go back and read my comments about the 4th of July contest they were, I think, taken out of context. I used it as an example of how far things can be interpreted regarding perceived exclusion and being reasonable and tolerant. It was not an anti-American remark or a criticism, it was using an example of how things can be perceived or misinterpreted. Looking back and reading and re-reading my comments, I was very clear on that.
I personally found the comments directed at the winner, upsetting. I still find them upsetting.
Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

just wondering what will you do if there is ever a tie???

Well then, I suppose I will be giving out the same prize to 2 winners

lol or maybe you could extend voting just between the two. have like a sudden death voting. lol i guess you can worry about it when it happens.

There is no reason why anyone shouldnt enter his or her cakes. Into a contest regardless of skill level everyone should give it a try. I have only been decorating for a short time I truly only have about 6-8 decorated cakes to my name and I have never taken a course. Look at entering the contests this way, if you win congratulations on a job well done if you dont win you still did a good job and chances are that there will be positive feedback on your cake, and that should at least inspire you to want to try again. Remember we are all our own worst critic. The contest is a way to show off your creativity and let the other members of the forum get a good look at what you are capable of. Dont feel your cakes are inferior to anyone elses on here. Everyone is a great decorator and should be proud of what they can do. This is a forum where we all come to share what we can do and help each other by asking and sharing questions tips hints ect.
The idea of creating a minimum requirement to enter a contest is to prevent those from coming to the forum just to compete. Jackies probationary period is a great idea. No matter how the 4th of July contest turns out I think all of the Entrants are winners just for being brave enough to compete.