I am making this toasted meringue wedding cake for a customer and i have 2 questions:
#1 - how do yuo apply the meringue and get this swirly pattern? piping or just with an offset spatula?


#2 - do you just use a regular hardware store torch?

http://pics.boards.weddingbee.com/80174.053009_jones_300x400.jpg

You could pipe it on or use a spatula depending on how you want it to look in the end. And yes, you can use a regular propane torch from the hardware store!

That is beautiful. Do you think that's a true meringue? I thought meringues weren't a very study frosting from a sitting out perspective.

Would love some insight on this. I love meringue in general but worry about how long they can sit out etc.

It looks so concise like an impressions mat. Absolutely stunning - not that I'd attempt anything like this ever but I think if you started with a background of swirls with the back of a spoon or an offset spatula then overpiped with icing, you'd get pretty close. Are you using boiled icing? How on earth will you keep the icing on in this heat??

Agreeing with sillywabbitz.....a "true" meringue would surely break down VERY quickly, as it does on a pie, for instance. What type of meringue is this, being used on a cake? It is a unique and lovely technique though.

I have used a meringue that is very stable like what I would guess is on that cake. It doesn't sweat like the kind you put on a pie. I've piped in on cupcakes and used it for funky spikey decoration on cakes.It's just like what you would use for a Swiss meringue buttercream without the butter.
Whisk together 2 parts sugar and 1 part egg white over a double boiler until it reaches a temp of 140 F. Or until all of the sugar crystals have dissolved. Whip in mixer bowl with a little vanilla until stiff peaks. Tastes just like marshmallows!

First, I want to point out that eggs must be taken to 160 degrees to be safe. If you are selling this product, be sure to comply with standard food safety practices.

The strongest of the meringues is Italian Meringue... essentially IMBC without the butter. There are also varying strengths and durability by manipulating the few ingredients, but all will be striong IF you calibrate your thermometer. I take my syrup to 245 degrees.

I use a kitchen torch. They are lightweight and can be set to very low flames to get the exact finished effect. Meringue goes from pretty to burned in a split second.

Thanks scp117 for the info on heating the syrup to the higher temp. I didn't know that would improve the stability. I will give this a try. I was reading online about some of this stuff so for anyone interested. The meringue we put on pies is called French Meringue and the meringue that holds up as scp117 mentioned is called Italian Meringue.

I am dying to try a cake like this now

Egg whites do not have to be taken to 160 degrees Fahrenheit to be safe. 140 is the temp needed to kill bacteria, and is the temp used in pasteurization. But don't take my word for it. Check the recipes from Epicurious, Martha Stewart, Smitten Kitchen, and hundreds more. It would be nice for once to give someone some advice about something without all the know-it-alls coming out of the woodwork!

I'm arguing the temp because I have not looked it up. But just a heads up for everyone out there, many of the recipes on Epicurious, Martha, food network and other website require refrigeration and they do not state it in the actual recipes. I've seen it time and time again that things like pumpkin pie which is a custard based pie requires refrigeration (see FDA guidelines) but you won't see that in any of the online recipes. I generally go with the FDA rules (also found in most food safety course) and not what is posted on the net in general. There is just too much mis-information out there.

lovingspoonful, you are incorrect. No one should get their food safety requirements from Martha Stewart and Food Network... or CC. It is posted and easily found on the egg board site, the FDA, and the USDA site. When looking up food safety, be sure that it if from the official board, .gov, .edu, or USDA and FDA. These are your only true sources. The local HD's also use these sites as their standards. A quick call to your local HD will give that magic number.

Sleepy, I sent you some recipes I use.

On Warren Brown's IMBC (Italian meringue is what you get in IMBC before you add the butter, same with Swiss), I use his 245 degrees, but I do a few more things and the IM is beautiful befor the butter inclusion. I add one yolk, add 1/4 tsp cream of tartar for each white after it foams (before actually inhibits structure), add a squirt of corn syrup in humid weather, and I mix about 5 minutes after it becomes room temp. I then get an Italian meringue that is difficult to remove from the whisk attachment. This is some strong Italian Meringue and will hold up well.

For those of you using the Swiss method, it does not hurt to take it to 160. I do it all the time.

For these methods to be at their best, be sure to calibrate your thermometers at least once a month. A few degrees will greatly affect sugar work.

I agree that it doesn't hurt to take the temp to 160. But I have worked with numerous pastry chefs who temp to 140, besides the others that I stated previously. Also, your method may not be taking the whites to 160. Here is an article from the egg safety section of the Incredible Edible Egg website.


The egg whites in an Italian meringue (made by adding hot sugar syrup to egg whites while beating them) do not reach much above 125° F, so this method is not recommended, except for dishes that are further cooked. If, however, you bring the sugar syrup all the way to the hardball stage (250 to 266° F), the whites will reach a high enough temperature. You can use a sugar syrup at hardball stage for Divinity and similar recipes.

If I recall, you stated that you bring your syrup to 245. How can you be sure you are reaching 160?

Correction, I put add another yolk, it another white.

Loving spoonfull, if you want to argue a known fact that anyone can look up, go ahead. I don't care what you do. But it is wrong to come on a public forum and spread food safety information that is incorrect. Eventually these posts become search results and someone will assume this is the correct number.

So please before anyone assumes the wrong number, look it up yourself. The number is 160!!! If you are selling these products, you will want to not only comply with HD guidelines, but if you are ever questioned about a food-related illness associated with an event where your products were present, spouting off your FDA/USDA/Egg Board knowledge and practices will go a long way in getting you out of the hot seat. Spouting out Martha Stewart and Chef Somebody will not help.

In every situation, it is very easy to get to 160. Go slowly so that a big heat surge does not cook your egg. I do this all the time. I have even found a way to safely make original Key Lime pie.

Forgot, sleepy, I sent you another PM. Thanks for pointing out my yolk error.

Thanks for clarifying Scp, I was so confused on where the heck I was putting an egg yolk!
I'm assuming the corn syrup is added to the sugar and water before heating to 245? I've read that this will also help with crystalization, although I've never had that problem before.

scp1127.....I concede! The food safety sites give 160 F as a temp for eggwhites. Now I want to know why so many recipes say to go to 140 or even less! Are they assuming that one will be using pasteurized eggs?
I know when to give up when I am incorrect, and I apologize for hijacking the topic of this thread!

Hey Susan, can you PM that meringue recipe? I currently put toasted meringue on cupcakes but it starts to break down after 12 or so hours. My cuppies never last that long, but I'd love to make sure it lasts even longer!

lovinspoonfull, the temperature when an egg does what it's supposed to do for a recipe and the temperature an egg needs to be heated to be considered safe are two different things.

I'm not sure when the FDA changed their guidelines, but it basically was when the big outbreak of contaminated eggs happened several years ago. Prior to that, 140 degrees was accepted and the contents of eggs were considered sterile. Not so anymore. Many, many cookbooks still state 140 as A-OK, as nobody is going to re-print a billion books to change this. Also, this is a US requirement, other countries have their own guidelines for how their eggs should be handled.

Last, just like the recipes found on CC, Epicurious, Cooks.com and other websites are user-generated recipes. Just because a recipe is on there doesn't mean it's correct. Take the new "glitter" recipe posted here - it has a photo of plastic craft glitter but the instructions are to make colored sugar... and the instructions are incorrect to boot. Just because it's online doesn't mean it's right

lovingspoonfull, I think it was just the way our grandmothers did it. I just watched MS do meringue for her high hat cupcakes and she stated 140. Others state 115.

The issue is that when we sell to others, we need to protect ourselves, our businesses, and our assets. The true chances of a contaminated egg are slim and the chance of a trace are slimmer. I do not practice the food safety rules at home... we eat raw cookie dough, taste all batters, put raw eggs in milkshakes, and I do not make my personal Key Lime pies safe unless someone is pregnant.

But this extra step is so important. Lets pretend that the caterer had contaminated food at a wedding, which is more likely. If you are questioned and you know more about FDA safety than the HD inspector, your knowledge and authority on the subject will help eliminate you. It's just like knowing alcohol issues. I can break down every one of my recipes down to exactly what was baked off. It helps customers feel comfortable serving a dessert with a little alcohol once they can see the per serving breakdown, which sometimes just equals using vanilla extract.

If you have a home, bank account, retirement account, or other property, you are more of a target in a lawsuit than a baker who owns nothing. Insurance will only go so far in the very unlikely event that you are accused. Treat this business like any business and make sure you cover your butt.

FromScratch, it is WB's IMBC (on his Cake Love site), add an extra white per batch, add 1/8 tsp cream of tartar per white when frothy (not before or it actually breaks down the structure, read that somewhere). I add a squirt of corn syrup if the weather is humid. I have also started to heat much faster. It seems to avoid crystalization along with the corn syrup. But what I found is the best for structure is to whip it until it is extremely difficult to remove from the whisk, maybe 8 minutes after room temp. Kind of like it looks when you forget about it. I'm talking a few minutes to get it out of a Pro6 whisk. I put this on my Lemon Meringue pie and the pie weeps long before the meringue breaks down. I have had a leftover piece for a week.

Alton Brown has a great "Good Eats" about the three meringues (Egg Files, but forgot which number). It's permanently on my DVR for reference. He went over the structure of French, Swiss, and Italian. French, no heat, is the weakest, Swiss next, and Italian has the strongest structure. You may be able to find the full episode on the web. When I make meringues for my museum work, I use Italian and they are indestructible.

I go to 160 (you can put an instant-read thermometer in the bowl to check). I make IMBC and take the syrup all the way to 248, and I'm very close to the mixer and throw it in as soon as I can.

About the egg temperature, most pastry textbooks used in school will say what it says in this link.

http://www.georgiaeggs.org/pages/pasteurization.html

"To pasteurize recipes containing eggs, 160 degrees must be reached or 140 degrees reached and held for 3 minutes."

That's why if I ask a pastry chef, he'll tell me 140 degrees, 3 minutes. That 160 number is almost never in their heads.

I just checked my On Baking book and it says the same: "USDA guidelines indicate that pasteurization is achieved when the whole egg stays at a temperature of 140˚F for 3.5 min."

There they added a half a minute to the whole thing...lol. But that's the explanation for why people are always fighting about the 140/160 situation.

Me? just in case I go to 160, it's not hard to do. Most of the time, I just use pasteurized eggs.

I found a section on the Incredible Edible Egg website that stated that if you take the sugar syrup all the way to the hardball stage(250-266) it will get the egg whites hot enough. Not sure what" hot enough" means though. They did not specify!

Hmm, I just realized that my recipe states to take it to 125c, which is actually 257F, so in addition to using pastuerized eggs, it would look like I am getting the syrup hot enough as well.

gator, you failed to take into consideration the chemical reaction in the IMBC process that turns the whites into a confection. And the drop in temp is definitely not what I find in my kitchen.

Instant read thermometers are sometimes, many times, out of calibration.

If you study sugar, as I do, you will find that it is incredibly hard to get sugar at that temp to lose heat. I do about 30% of my business in wholesale museum work exactly duplicating historic recipes, some 3000 years old. I have extensively studied sugar, its properties, and I have burned myself so many times that I'm sure that alone has given me expert status.

When I drop hard crack syrup onto my cold stainless steel table, even then, the temp drops very little. The table buckles and the bottom of the table will leave a bad burn even minutes later. If I take my IMBC to 255 by mistake, I must put the pot on my cold table and wait a good while for it to reach 245, just a mere 10 degrees. When making poured fondant, it take the sugar syrup (I think it is about 240 degrees) about 1/2 hour to lower 100 degrees in my cold food processor with the steel blade) food processor to 140 degrees, the temp required to process the fondant.

And please re-read my posts. I gave recipes for the three meringues. Not once did I mention AB or WB referring to food safety. So please read closely before yo call me out on a non-existent claim.

Because I am providing products nationally, I have become familiar with many aspects of food safety. If you look hard enough, every answer is on the web on an official site, such as the life of a peanut covered in sugar, the effects of sugar on egg-whites in every method (I make historical meringues and boiled sugar that also uses whites). The wholesaler, who is a historic candy expert and former professor, works closely with authenticity and I study the safety so that we don't hurt anyone. The secret is in the sugar.

gator, perhaps you put too much water in your syrup, thus causing the extreme drop due to the structure being weak. Just guessing, because it does not happen to me.

Yes, my SMBC, all custards, 7 minute frosting, and even my "original" recipe Key lime pie are all taken to 160. Not only is it safe, the structure is beautiful at these temps.

little, in addition to food safety, which you have already secured with the pasteurized eggs, the structure greatly improves at the higher temps, so you are getting a strong meringue provided that your ratios are good. Just don't let it get too high to where the properties of the sugar change again. You don't want caramel and you don't want to get near hard crack.